Champ car manning arrangements

[Stephen Sutton]

I was at Brands yesterday for the Champ Cars. The documents we received before the meeting did highlight the special nature of the meeting and mentioned there would be a rotation system for post personnel suggesting this was to allow everyone to have a break.

At sign on I was told by the Chief Marshal ‘you may need to stand down during Champ cars’. Everyone else who signed on while I was at the counter was told the same and I took this as a warning that the rotation system would apply.

I was on post 23 and at the briefing the observer produced a list of personnel who would be on post for Champ cars and we were told everyone had to leave the post and go to the spectator area. This meant one observer out of two, one flag marshal out of three and four course/incident out of seven would have to leave the post. I asked if this was covered all Champ car activity but was told no just the race, everyone could stay for practice and qualifying. I wasn’t happy about this but decided to go with the flow.

Just before the first Champ Car session we were told sorry got it wrong you have to leave the post immediately and go to the spectator area and that this would apply to all Camp Car activities and that there would be no rotation.

I spent some five hours off post yesterday thoroughly bored and fed up.

I eventually got to speak to the Chief Marshal at 16:00.

My position was that the documentation we were sent was grossly misleading. There was no ‘rotation’; they should have explicitly told use that there would be reduced manning levels for substantial parts of all three days. Individuals could then have taken an informed decision on whether to attend. I also felt the statement he made at signing on was disingenuous. There was no ‘may’ about it he had already decided who was going to be on post and he simply avoided a difficult conversation with people like me. I felt it very unfair that the on post observer had had to explain the situation to the troops and try and justify the situation to people like me.

His position was few course personnel were required and that anyone on post was lucky. He was surprised I hadn’t anticipated this. After a spirited discussion he accepted that the documentation sent to use hadn’t said this. He said the meeting was over manned but they had tried to let as many people come as possible so people could effectively get free spectator admission. I had to explain that I don’t marshal to be a spectator I do it to participate. I can afford a ticket and that if I wanted to spectate I’d bring the wife and kids and do it properly.

He conceded that the arrangements had caused problems and that on Sunday observers would be told to implement a rotation system and that people who hadn’t been on post for Champ Cars on Saturday would be on post Sunday, however, he couldn’t change the arrangements for race day. I explained there were now going to be people who been told they’d be on post all three days would now find they weren’t on post Sunday. I felt BARC had caused this situation through bad man management, I didn’t want to fall out with my fellow marshals who might fell they were now excluded because I complained. I told him as the meeting was over manned and clearly I wasn’t needed the best solution was for me not to attend on the two remaining days. Any other way and I’d likely become the villain in some other marshal’s eyes.

I have no problem with the post observer and good luck to everyone who is on post for the Champ Cars. I do have a real problem with BARC. They needed to ensure they had sufficient marshals for TOCA, so to avoid possible problems they didn’t explain the full situation. Chances are if they had done loads of people would still have applied and been quite happy to sit out five hours of the day in the spectator area. It would have let people like me decide to do other things with the bank holiday weekend. As it is I’ve spent weeks looking forward to this and now I’m home doing DIY, not the weekend I planned!

[hoonboyz]

they (CART) stand down marshals at the Gold Coast race but only those in the pit area ( points at Pit In , Mid Pit and Pit out) the same way only 2 of 4 Flaggies ,none of the trackies, 1 of 2 Obs and 1 of our 3 firies allowed to stay on point. it makes for a boring Cart session but we did rotate ourselves so everyone got a turn at it BUT we had to stand and watch that crash last yr , and we were told to stay where we were , that our help wasnt needed to clean it up !! so we watched for 3 hrs in the Rain !!
i cant work out what Cart is thinking are we a waste of time, useless , or what ???

[EvilPumpkin]

Well I was obviously fortunate to be on a post that did rotate all the course marshals from the get go. We were simply told to organise it amongst ourselves and that's precisely what we did. Everyone got to do a bit of the practices and the race - and since I was visiting from Ireland and don't often get a chance to go to Brands, I enjoyed the stand down time as I got the opportunity to do something I don't normally get to do - wander around the paddock and check out the "sideshows". However, I can appreciate that for those who do Brands regularly, this may not have been an attractive option.

I have to be honest - I had always understood that there would be a large amount of stand-down time for those not allocated to Cart - but that was based on conversations with various people - I did note that it wasn't in the documentation.

[sss]

dont grumble to much, some people were standing by the whole day, and that made a long day with no 'official' lunch break

[EvilPumpkin]

oh puleease - you were asleep in the unit after eating that humungous breakfast!

[sss]

and the eighteen bags of twiglets given to us by teletubby

[KayBee]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
oh puleease - you were asleep in the unit after eating that humungous breakfast!

Aah!! so you met sss then.......

[MagnetON]

Well on post 4 we had five course marshals and were told that only two were necessary for each Champ car session, so while two of us had been told at sign on that we were "on" for Cart we rotated among all the course marshals, we rotated one of the course spots between two people (both EMS "First Responders") and the other spot between the three course marshals. It was generally agreed to be a "good thing" to have someone with some degree of medical training on at any one time

I thoroughly enjoyed the whole weekend and the stand-down time was excellent as it did allow us to take in some of the rest of the atmosphere of the event.

And just for the record.... when Tracy's car went WOOF at our post... I was stood down and fast asleep under a tree in the spectator area! I missed the whole thing

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by KayBee
Aah!! so you met sss then.......

She's now an expert on whistles!

[Gonfra]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
She's now an expert on whistles!

She even got to see my Orange one!!!

[chezza]

Hehe!

So now I understand why there were so many marshals about all day!

[spanner]

I have to say even though it was strange not being on post most of the day, you very rerely get to walk around at a big meeting and appreciate the atmos and the stalls around, so i enjoyed it. But being that the Champcars are the star attraction i ended up staying on post but being told not to do anything.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by hoonboyz

i cant work out what Cart is thinking are we a waste of time, useless , or what ???

It has nothing at all to do with CART. It has EVERYTHING to do with their insurers. CART have had quite a few marshals as well as drivers killed or seriously injured over the past few years and so have decided not to let ANYONE except the Simple Green guys onto a live track at most venues. This is exactly what happened in Houston 2 yrs ago and I was on post with some of the most senior American marshals available. They did not take it as an insult, rather they took it as a series understanding the dangers involved with such quick lap times and no run-off areas. (Houston is inclosed by concrete as it's a street race). Brands was being run as an oval/street race and as such CART were just being consistant with their own rules.
CART play with a different rule book and as such, it's up to each marshal to decide if they'd like to be there or not. I agree that the documentation was misleading but I don't think for one second that it was intentional. I knew what it meant but can see where those of you that were (until this weekend) unfamiliar with CART could have been misled. Everyone will know for next time and will be able to make their decision as to whether or not they volunteer accordingly. Don't forget though, Brands only found out about some required duties when people volunteered for it!!! I know of at least one email to Jim Swintal asking for details about a duty that a marshal had said he had experience of at Rockingham. Trevor Jackson was not even aware that such a duty existed!!!!!!

That being said, I got to meet Damon Hill, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Stephan Johannson, Dario Francitti, Chris Pook as well as all the CART drivers. I was also made to feel part of the team that I was assigned to. When this is available in F1 I'll do the GP's again. (I'll also be able to sunbathe on the moon and shoot low-flying pigs!!!)

[Tony_J]

You can't argue with CARTs regulations. From our own perspective we marshal each and every weekend and sadly have either seen, heard or been associate with the death of a fellow marshal or competitor over the years. As far as speed is concerned, if you get hit by a car or debri doing 125mph your are as likely to be as dead as being hit by one doing 150+mph. Simple Green are probably very efficient but I still believe that a guy on the ground in the immediate vicinity of an incident can react more quickly than having to call for a mobile crew. We do it most weekends for pete's sake

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Tony_J
You can't argue with CARTs regulations. From our own perspective we marshal each and every weekend and sadly have either seen, heard or been associate with the death of a fellow marshal or competitor over the years. As far as speed is concerned, if you get hit by a car or debri doing 125mph your are as likely to be as dead as being hit by one doing 150+mph. Simple Green are probably very efficient but I still believe that a guy on the ground in the immediate vicinity of an incident can react more quickly than having to call for a mobile crew. We do it most weekends for pete's sake

I agree totally but we don't live in the US !! I have done so and fully understand their litigation laws! CART's insurers would not even allow us in the pit-lane to have 2 dustbins full of water per fuelling-rig. It HAD to be a 55 gallon drum. We had to find liners for the leaking ones just to satisfy them. Their rules are NOT a reflection of us marshals. I know this because senior CART officials have told me to my face.

[MagnetON]

Originally posted by Tony_J
I still believe that a guy on the ground in the immediate vicinity of an incident can react more quickly than having to call for a mobile crew.

Case in point, the Tracy fire was put out by a marshal on foot with a bottle who put the fire out before Simple Green or the fire response unit could roll.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by MagnetON
Case in point, the Tracy fire was put out by a marshal on foot with a bottle who put the fire out before Simple Green or the fire response unit could roll.

the marshal on foot arrived at the same time as the fire land-rover. At least that's the way it seemed on the monitors, as viewed by marshals that were awake at the time!

quote: "And just for the record.... when Tracy's car went WOOF at our post... I was stood down and fast asleep under a tree in the spectator area! I missed the whole thing"

[mark ch]

But I doubt many of us could have saved Zanardi from his accident.. even our rescue guys and lasses..

Simple Green are professions and deserving of some of the comments here..

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by crazystu
the marshal on foot arrived at the same time as the fire land-rover. At least that's the way it seemed on the monitors, as viewed by marshals that were awake at the time!

Negative on that one Stu - I was NOT asleep (although I was seriously considering it!) and saw the whole thing. The landrover appeared as the extinguisher was being let off.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by mark ch
But I doubt many of us could have saved Zanardi from his accident.. even our rescue guys and lasses..

Simple Green are professions and deserving of some of the comments here..

We're not talking about preventing incidents, we're talking about dealing with them. The Simple Green guys I met were very nice although I didn't have much in the way of interaction with them - but the simple fact of the matter is this - a marshal on a post can get to an incident faster than an intervention vehicle that has to wait for a gap and then safely negotiate race traffic.

In case of fire, it could be the difference between a driver who gets a small fright and a guy with burns and seared lungs from inhaling superheated air. That's a vital difference. The skill is not in question - it's the speed of response.

[Woolley]

I'd hazard a guess that it's all because that's how it's done on ovals, and so the same full time crews went to the road & street courses and operated the same way. Now there's virtually no ovals, but they continue with what they know. My view is a mixture of both works well, but the drivers aren't expecting to see people trackside and may not make the right allowance for their being there. Anyway, well done Hollywood for beating the Land Rover and Simple Green. You must have powerful stuff in your running shoes over the water.

[wiggles]

Personally I was slightly dissapointed when I was told I would be asked to stand down for the CART sessions, but it didn't upset me to much. Got to wander round the pit and paddock during the qualifying, take a few nice piccies as well. Also we eventually employed a rotation system on the post that allowed me to be involved in a session or two (so I can now say "I marshalled CART").

In respect to any comments about whether marshals are needed; of course we are! I appreciate that the Simple Green teams are best positioned to deal with inciddents, but what happens if a car crashes near a post and is obviously on fire? I think we would be well within our rights to tackle it whilst the safety trucks are arriving, those vital seconds could save a life.

2 cents? I want change!

[Cynic]

I understand the reasons for using the Simple Green guys, but is it really necessary to deploy then every time a driver needs his nose blowing? If there's a major crunch I'm happy to stand back and let them to deal with it, but if (as happened) a driver spins and stalls in the pit lane entrance, or beaches himself in the kitty litter, it seems a bit OTT to red-flag the session and send a pick-up that looks like a mobile disco to bumpstart it, when there are half a dozen course marshals standing ten feet away.

[EvilPumpkin]

I'm assuming this is all stuff that can be sorted out for next year. In fairness, the CART guys are not used to marshals who would be trained the same way we are, or that operate the same way we do. There is also the issue of having different rules at different circuits for a travelling race class.

Hopefully what will happen before next year is that the CART Safety people will get the chance to sit down with BARC and agree a method of operation that gives the best possible safety cover to both drivers and marshals and ensures that every incident is dealt with as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[Teletubby]

I have the greatest professional respect for the Simple Green Safety Team, they have what they do down to a fine art. That said I'm not sure that the treatment that Zanardi got was any better or different (other than the fact that without a MediVac he would certainly have died) than that available from any Rescue Crew at any club meeting.