TVR Griffiths 200/400 and their Chassis Numbers

[John Turner]

I'm hoping that this might finish up in the Chassis Archive, maybe via the History forum but since a number of these cars have been running in the recent couple of seasons, I thought I'd start here. I know that some here take exception to the fact that some of these have acquired HTPs when there is no known International racing history, but as you know this 'pocket rocket' from the 1960s is a great favourite of mine. I'm trying to identify as many as possible and maybe even get some idea of chassis numbers and history, although many will be short of the latter!

Griffith 200 - 4.7 V8 Ford - 195 bhp - rounded Grantura Mk 3 bodies with Cortina rear light cluster - early cars anyway, a few later, may have been bodied as below

Griffith 400 - 4.7 V8 Ford - 271 bhp - Kamm tailed 1800S bodies,

Built mainly 1964 - 1965

Clearly, any that are now racing are unlikely to have less power than the 271 bhp version, some surely rather more, so at the moment I'm lumping them together. The cars that I remember having seen in recent seasons are owned or driven by:-

Jason and Louise Kennedy (acquired I think by them from Canada?)
Roger Connel (he has owned his for many years)
Jamie Boot
Jon Shipman
Julian Dodd
Steve Watton (although noted for sale at the end of the 2007 season)
Simon Garrard
Mark Garritt

I may think of some more, but can anyone add to this list, and add any further info about the individual cars. Both Louise and Mark are 10-Tenthers, so hopefully they will respond at least!

[John Turner]

Oh, and Willie Green has confirmed that he is working on one too, although I don't think he intends to return to racing personally.

I'm happy for the slightly later Tuscan V8s to be added in too, if there is any info available. I remember a couple of those became very successful modsports cars.

[terence]

NOT INTENDED AS AN AD. I currently have one on the web John,Chassis No 03/200 but was crashed in 67 by its then owner,one of the Bond Film stuntmen of the time.It was eventually bought by Don Law who did some racing with it.It has just been subjected to a full restoration by its present owner.I can let you have the full story if required.Not sure,but I think Mark Garrits car is the ex-Joe Ward car,our second 6Hr victory.

[John Turner]

Good one, Terry; got a link? Can you give its known history to date?

[terence]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Good one, Terry; got a link? Can you give its known history to date?

Here or PM ?

[Tim Falce]

I think John Ellison is building a 65 200 for racing at the moment.

[terence]

He is,but not for Historic racing.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I'm hoping that this might finish up in the Chassis Archive, maybe via the History forum but since a number of these cars have been running in the recent couple of seasons, I thought I'd start here. I know that some here take exception to the fact that some of these have acquired HTPs when there is no known International racing history, but as you know this 'pocket rocket' from the 1960s is a great favourite of mine. I'm trying to identify as many as possible and maybe even get some idea of chassis numbers and history, although many will be short of the latter!

Griffith 200 - 4.7 V8 Ford - 195 bhp - rounded Grantura Mk 3 bodies with Cortina rear light cluster - early cars anyway, a few later, may have been bodied as below

Griffith 400 - 4.7 V8 Ford - 271 bhp - Kamm tailed 1800S bodies,

Built mainly 1964 - 1965

Clearly, any that are now racing are unlikely to have less power than the 271 bhp version, some surely rather more, so at the moment I'm lumping them together. The cars that I remember having seen in recent seasons are owned or driven by:-

Jason and Louise Kennedy (acquired I think by them from Canada?)
Roger Connel (he has owned his for many years)
Jamie Boot
Jon Shipman
Julian Dodd
Steve Watton (although noted for sale at the end of the 2007 season)
Simon Garrard
Mark Garritt

I may think of some more, but can anyone add to this list, and add any further info about the individual cars. Both Louise and Mark are 10-Tenthers, so hopefully they will respond at least!

I think a few people will take exception to your assertion that there is no known International racing history for Griffiths. Below is a sample:

P. Simpson in the AMOC Silverstone International Martini Trophy on 24th July 1965. EHM Paul at Brands Hatch in the Redex Trophy race on 30th August 1965. D. Heinz and Tom Harmar in a round of the USSRC at Road America on 12th September 1965. Otto Karger and P. Simpson at Aspern in Austria on 17th October 1965. Gerry Marshall also drove the works prepared car MMT 7C at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on 17th September 1966.

The HiPo 289 (271bhp) was an option on 200s and standard on 400s. 200s do not have Cortina lights. You are correct that they have a Grantura rear end but they should have individual Sparto lenses, although many have replaced these with Lucas/Land Rover lights. The Griffith had the Kamm tail 2 years before the 1800S which was not homologated until 1967 (yes I know there is an 1800S running as a Grantura in period F).

A few others:

Malcolm Johnson's (light blue/white stripes) car which ran in the 2008 6 hrs which is an immaculate 400 bodied 200. Laurence Bailey has a (orange) 400 which was badly damaged in an accident at the L'Age D'Or meeting at Dijon in 2007. Cambridge Motorsport built a (yellow car) that was subsequently owned by Tim Fish. Richard Tyzack had a (silver) 200 which ran in FIA GTC. In addition to Jelli and Willie Green, I understand Richard Dodkins is also building one. There is at least one dutch one racing (dark red) and one in Germany. According to Mike Mooney the author of 'Griffith Years' 261 US Griffith 200s and 59 Griffith 400s were built.

I have an immaculate roadgoing Griffith 400 currently for sale with history back to 1966 including period competition which some of you will have seen in the paddock at Spa - red with white stripes on chrome wires. Terry has one and Mike Abbas had one for sale as well.

HTH

R

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

He is,but not for Historic racing.

That's not what I heard, but I could be wrong.................again.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

I have an immaculate roadgoing Griffith 400 currently for sale with history back to 1966 including period competition which some of you will have seen in the paddock at Spa - red with white stripes on chrome wires. Terry has one and Mike Abbas had one for sale as well.

R

Quite a few for sale then, what sort of money do they command?

[terence]

Judging by the mod's he asked me about Tim,it wont be an FIA car
Richard,according to the TVR Historian,sorry but I cant remember his name,Griffiths do not have any international race history,the works could not afford it and niether could Mr Griffith himself.

[kurtiejjj]

The dark red Dutch Griffith participates in NKHTGT, as far as I know a 400. It's driven by a certain Niek van Gils. Certainly an impressive bit of kit because last spring at the Historic Zandvoort Trophy it managed to keep up and overtake the Ford GT40 of Hans Hugenholtz! To lighten up this thread here is a pic of the car:

[terence]

Something a bit strange with those front arches Does King Fritz still have his,?that was the first car that Joe Ward won the 6hr with.I did'nt realise Niek had one now,or is it the one I think it is.?

[simon drabble]

Excuse my ignorance but if they dont have international history how do they get FIA papers.. and Redex etc are international aren't they? I dont have one for sale just to be clear!!

[terence]

They have been in the limelight for a while Simon,but according to the letter sent me by John Symes it has now been resolved,although there is an enquirie still on-going.Mike Mooney recons that some of them were "Downright dangerous". As to the granting of the papers in the first place? your guess is as good as mine,perhaps a G Marshall legacy?
Tim,the one I have had in excess of £100k spent on a full resto,you can have it for half of that.

[terence]

Chassis 03/200 left the factory 65,went to Barnet Motor Co where GM used it as his demo car.It was sold during that year to a Colin Skeaping,Bond film stuntman,he crashed it in London same year.The car was rebuilt by the factory,this took two years! it was here they decided to upgrade the car to 400 spec [there is a factory letter of authentication].Eventually the car was bought by Don Law,he raced it with various modifications including the still installed Rear Roll Hoop. it did the rounds a bit after Don sold it early seventys,being acquired by various authors of the Marque until it came into the possesion of the present owner.The car has now had absolutly everything renewed including the chassis/suspension,etc.It is now finished in Maroon,the owner not really a fan of the original Red it left the factory with.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Richard,according to the TVR Historian,sorry but I cant remember his name,Griffiths do not have any international race history,the works could not afford it and niether could Mr Griffith himself.

This may be semantics, in which case I apologise, but "international" surely means the category of the event, not where the event is held?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

I think a few people will take exception to your assertion that there is no known International racing history for Griffiths.

P. Simpson in the AMOC Silverstone International Martini Trophy on 24th July 1965. EHM Paul at Brands Hatch in the Redex Trophy race on 30th August 1965. D. Heinz and Tom Harmar in a round of the USSRC at Road America on 12th September 1965. Otto Karger and P. Simpson at Aspern in Austria on 17th October 1965. Gerry Marshall also drove the works prepared car MMT 7C at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on 17th September 1966.

I didn't express that very well, did I? It wasn't my assertion but a view, I believe expressed elsewhere on this forum. I actually didn't/don't know, so my apologies.

Originally Posted by FISCracer

The HiPo 289 (271bhp) was an option on 200s and standard on 400s. 200s do not have Cortina lights. You are correct that they have a Grantura rear end but they should have individual Sparto lenses, although many have replaced these with Lucas/Land Rover lights. The Griffith had the Kamm tail 2 years before the 1800S which was not homologated until 1967 (yes I know there is an 1800S running as a Grantura in period F).

Thanks for the clarification on the lights. Not sure how I got the rear end of the Lola Mk6 into my head whilst typing that My info on the bodies was taken from Tipler's book, obviously a little too literally!

Originally Posted by FISCracer

A few others:

Malcolm Johnson's (light blue/white stripes) car which ran in the 2008 6 hrs which is an immaculate 400 bodied 200. Laurence Bailey has a (orange) 400 which was badly damaged in an accident at the L'Age D'Or meeting at Dijon in 2007. Cambridge Motorsport built a (yellow car) that was subsequently owned by Tim Fish. Richard Tyzack had a (silver) 200 which ran in FIA GTC. In addition to Jelli and Willie Green, I understand Richard Dodkins is also building one. There is at least one dutch one racing (dark red) and one in Germany. According to Mike Mooney the author of 'Griffith Years' 261 US Griffith 200s and 59 Griffith 400s were built.

I have an immaculate roadgoing Griffith 400 currently for sale with history back to 1966 including period competition which some of you will have seen in the paddock at Spa - red with white stripes on chrome wires. Terry has one and Mike Abbas had one for sale as well.

HTH

R

Great info. thanks.

[John Turner]

Thanks to everyone else for their contribs, too! More, please!

I do have quite a few pics, many of which will have appeared in my pictorial race reviews, and if this develops and gets into the Chassis Archive, I'll add them, but at the moment it's as much info that is available that I am after.

[simon drabble]

John it seems that you might have been right about International history. I have to say that I am confused as I would have thought Redex at least was an international status meeting but I must be wrong....
It is interesting that now people seem to have worked out how to set them up (although Jamie Boot seems to have got on with his pretty well for some time) they are having a renaissance

[terence]

Peter,just to clarify the +"International" aspect.It is possible to have an International Event that plays host to some supporting Club events,it is those that are not classed as International.If it was indeed one of those situations,then FIA/HTPs should not have been approved/granted.
For example,1954 at Brands Hatch,Daily Mail International Trophy, a certain HRG was at the meeting and competed,but in a supporting race =no HTPs.
There is no dark secret with them Simon,quite a straight forwards bit of kit really although they did vary by quite a bit from the factory.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

This may be semantics, in which case I apologise, but "international" surely means the category of the event, not where the event is held?

Quite right Peter - location is irrelevant, status is what matters. There is lots of evidence of Griffiths racing in the US in period at Road America for example but the FIA don't recognise these - they weren't FIA sanctioned events.......

Malcolm Johnson built his 400 in 2007 and gathered a large amount of information about their race history. On that basis papers were issued by Jim Lowry, I think. There is some discussion about what mods were run in period eg car width, air intakes etc but eligibility does not appear to be an issue.

I do not believe there is any question that the International Senior Service Sports Car race at Silverstone on 10.7.65 or the AMOC Martini Trophy at Silverstone on 24.7.65 or the Aspern GT on 17.10.65 were 'International' events all of which had Griffiths competing.

Terry I suspect those such as Jon Shipman and Malcolm have a greater interest than the TVRCC archivist in proving the race history of the cars. I just hope the FIA take an even handed approach when looking at the eligibility and specification of other marques.

Jelli is building his 200 to a similar spec to Steve Watton's car ie not FIA

R

[terence]

One little snippet for you John that may help,Joe Wards two Griffiths,the first a 200,the second,now owned by Tim Fish,and I belive now finished in blue.Both cars were shunted at Mallory at the end of the 02 season,[we rebuilt both in a fortnight!] One,the yellow car,had a new chassis whilst we had to repair the White/Red stripe car that went to Holland eventually.Cars with the JNP registration number have all come from Chris Sherle this includes the Boot car.
Jim Lowry is now having to take a second look at all of the Griffs,he had a look at Mongoose a couple of weeks ago. Seems strange that we ,CMS,never had any problem 14years ago with the papers though.

[Peter Mallett]

Thanks for the clarification Terry.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Thanks for the clarification Terry.

No probs mate!