FIA harness need for advice

[carsten.meurer]

hi folks !

just back from doing my first outing in a racecar within 12 month, and the
first race in about 3 years...

what i found is that i am getting an old fart, and doing things like driving a
formula vauxhall lotus is harder ! not made easier by being rather unfit...

now i want to do some more racing in the following weeks, but i found a problem that even fitness or slimming down is unlikely to help with !

for single seaters the fia 3'' shoulder straps are mandatory.
now in some cars i have there is no room for my neck in between these
wide belts. so i cannot tighten them up half as good as 2'', and still they
get pushed outward so much, that they disturb shoulder movement when
steering ( comes a lot from shoulders in reynard/ FVL due to lay down
position ).

result is me only being able to drive with loose shoulder straps !
not really what i like to do !

i looked around, and they have hans harnesses with 2" shoulders, but for
hans use only, and there is not even room for a hans in that car at all.

so i called german asn today, but they are hopeless...
when the guy having a seat in fia comission returns in a week, i could let him
know of my problem and he could maybe bring it up with fia...
i know the guy is a complete nut anyhow, as he lacks all imagination for
the simpelest problems !
of course i tried to call fia direct, thinking that if i can apply for a hans waiver
with fia safety commission, i should be able to let them know of this very
unique ( is it ? ) safety problem, but they were closed...

now, does anyone else have a similar problem with wide belts in a old car,
or does anyone know of a loophole ?

i would rather buy a new 2" belt that i can make work propperly, than use a loose 3" one...

[MikeBz]

I have 3" belts in my F[V/O]L and don't have a problem. Maybe I have a small neck! I'll measure the spacing between the mounting points this evening and post it here.

Mike

[MikeBz]

The answer is I must have a small neck... the spacing between bolt centres (the ones holding the belts in, not the ones in my neck...) is ~120mm.

Mike

[MGDavid]

the MSA Blue Book recommends that the shoulder belts are crossed over behind the seat before attachment to the mountings. If Carsten's are but Mike's aren't, this could explain why one is uncomfortable and the other is OK.

[JohnMiller]

Not sure you can do that in a single-seater!

[MikeBz]

It would certainly be uncomfortable, but only for the short period before you passed out...

For MGDavid's benefit, the mounting points are immediately behind the driver's head/shoulders - if you're tallish then your back is right against the bulkhead on which the belts are mounted (and the engine is just behind that...).

Mike

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

......in a single-seater!......

Ah, apols, missed that vital bit....

[lear45xr]

hi carsten

having just bought a formula renault with 3" belts i also found the same problem with the 3" belts cutting into my neck etc.
i last raced 10 years ago i used 2" belts with no problems.
dont see the point in 3" belts especially when you can buy 2" belts only suitable with hans.
more money for someone!!

[scrutineer]

dont see the point in 3" belts especially when you can buy 2" belts only suitable with hans.
more money for someone!!

Well you could solve the problem by getting HANS and then using the smaller (HANS approved) belts

[carsten.meurer]

you got my position against motor rracing autorities in the hans device threat
i guess...

i just like to put rules in question for myself, and come to my own result if
they are good, bad or irrelevant and to be followed or ignored.

as my asn could not help me, i called willans to see if my suspicion about
ONLY 3" belt being fia eligible was right. it sadly was !

i had seen the hans belts, and already had a set in my hands to get round MY
problem, when the label read ' use with hans only ' .
as i can NO WAY fit a hans into a FVL, this is out of question !

it is beyond me how a 2" is ok with a hans, but not without.

i see the point in wider harnesses being potentially safer aswell.
just like with my feeling hans is not suited to some cars, i feel the same
might happen with 3" belts.
its great for pros and wannabees in suited cars, but could be a problem for
some club racers ! after all i am glad we are two at least having a similar
problem.

i had some discomfort in my 97 van diemen, but due to more upright seating
position, i can use my elbows to steer more than in the FVL.
in the reynard ff88 its impossible to tighten even 2" straps and still turn the
wheel... no idea what driver they designed the car around.

so, what would you say : should i stop racing if i am not average jockey size,
or do i have a point in that i should only be forced to use a wide seatbelt if i
can use it in the intended way due to car design and individual size ?

i would feel much safer being able to use a properly fitted new 2" than the
loose ones !

oh why do always i have these abnormal problems ? or am i the only one to
openly complain and look for a better solution rather than shut up and put
up ?

[scrutineer]

To be honest the 3'' belts came into club racing at the start of this year asn I have not seen a problem yet (apart from the people who forgot about the changes and turned up with 2") but I have heard of no one moaning about the fit/comfort of 3" belts.

[Eddy V]

Very dumb question Carsten: can't you move the pick up points for the belts a little bit?

[carsten.meurer]

not dumb at all eddy !

i see two problems...

starting to weld on the rollbar that they are attached to, will surely not please
the officials, as the certificate of that structure says it becomes unvalid if
the rollbar is altered in any way. the belt mountings are shown on the
certificate !

i did think of having special adapter plates made to move the belts outward,
but am afraid that they will turn under heavy forces of any impact, and as
such lenghten the belts just like they are when i leeave them loose.

the FVL must have one of the tiniest cockpit openings ever to be
homologated ! i had to remove the late head protection to be able to get
out without removing the bodywork !
my shoulders sit firmly under both side upper frames.
there is very little space at all. so even moving them outward will mean i will
restrict movement of my shoulders even more !

must be a reynard design related problem !
the steering wheel is very far away from the driver, so you have your arms
stretched out nearly completely. so most movement to turn the wheel comes
from the shoulders.

as said i prefered the 2" in my 97 zetec van diemens. it just gave more room !
but i was able to drive with 3" ok, so no need to complain !

just in the FVL its really bad !
i did not measure it yet, but if its 120mm between belts as stated, i squeeze
a 160-170mm neck in between.

just do not want to imagine what happenes if i have a head on impact, and the belts stretch. surely they will try and get towards 120mm the whole way..

i had a big head on with 2" belts in it, and i was happy with what they did !

[MikeBz]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

it is beyond me how a 2" is ok with a hans, but not without.

Ridiculous and illogical isn't it?

Mike

[Chris Y]

If the belts are attached to a section of the roll cage, presumably using eye bolts.. Would it be possible to loop the belts around the roll cage, saloon car-style, then they'd be free to move sideways to accomodate the size of your neck..?

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

If the belts are attached to a section of the roll cage, presumably using eye bolts.. Would it be possible to loop the belts around the roll cage, saloon car-style, then they'd be free to move sideways to accomodate the size of your neck..?

smart thinking, sadly the eyes are welded into a bar that is used for the
firewall to be rivettet to !
so its not possible to sling the belts around that tube ! :-(

[scrutineer]

Ridiculous and illogical isn't it?

Not if you read into the reasons behind it. But I know drivers like to knock the cred of HANS as they dont want to spend any money on any safe items only those that give them extra BHP. But thats another thread

[MikeBz]

I'm not knocking the credibility of HANS.

I'm interested in the reasons why a 2" belt is considered OK with HANS but not without. I can't see that it's to do with spreading the load because the HANS device is rigid so all the load is applied at the points of contact.

Mike

[carsten.meurer]

i understood that 3" were introduced to enlarge the surface of the body that
is held by the belts during impact.

that is not needed with a hans device, as it will break your bones no matter
if you use a 2" or 3" ...

i guess the manufacturers are able to produce 2" that stretch the same way
under load as 3" do !

i am just glad you have the smilie in your post scrut ...
otherwise i might take that you still do not want to understand my point
about it being dangerous in not suited cars ! its not a cost thing with me at
all ! i own two hans, but hope to never wear one !

[R59]

Carsten,

Could you move the firewall behind this section of tube? I wonder if there is enough space behind to give clearance for the belts.

Then you could loop them around the tube.

Rob.

[Doc Hollywood]

Hey guys, I've had this very long and drawn out conversation with one of our top scrutineers, the reason 2 inch belts are permitted with HANS is because the device is very un-comfortable with 3 inch belts . The HANS itself is approx 4 inches wide and therefore spreads the load and apart from very early models all HANS are fitted with padding thus not making them completely rigid.

I've always raced with 3inch belts (shoulder and lap) and wouldnt change unless using HANS. Carsten, I think you should apply for permission to modify the bars rather than apply to race with 2inch belts. Just a thought!

[Eddy V]

Doc, you can use 3" with Hans as well. Lot of sales and FIA talk in the 2" thing. Stay with your 3" belt, whatever you do.

[Doc Hollywood]

I was going on the understanding that 3inch are nearly impossible to race with due to the discomfort. I've to buy a new harness and helmet for next season anyway so I was just going to throw the HANS setup in and be done with it. I would prefere 3inch but unfortunatly not many suppliers allow you to test a harness prior to purchase!

[Eddy V]

There is absolutely no (more) discomfort with either 2" or 3" belts.
FIA goofed up as usual.
FIA makes 3" mandatory. No problem, I agree with that, a lot safer.
First Hans comes along: 3" belts "slip off" sometimes with 1 make of Hans system, in conjunction with a certain type of seat.
FIA panics and says: change belts.

Eh?

From 2" to 3" and change back within a year?
So: a bright eye created the 3-2-3 belt.

Hold on a second: 2" belts are no longer allowed.
FIA says: err.

Short: it should be no problem to use a 3" belt and a Hans in almost any type of car.


Unless your name is Carsten.

(joke, honestly Carsten)

[carsten.meurer]

i did ask for it eddy, didn't i ?

we have changed the belts around a bit ( only valid for this year, and park likely last race with that car this season ), and at least for strights its a bit
better now.

i hope i will never ever have a shunt that would make a difference between
2" and 3" in any of my cars !
i am sure me legs would be gone by then !

wrecked two cars frontal big time with 2", and had no problem at all !

but you point to my biggest problem with all this stuff...

THE STUPID WAY IT GETS HANDELED BY FIA AND ASNs !
if only i could believe it was due to good intentions at least.....

doc, i will never try and change the frame or hoops on any of my cars !
i want them as raced in period !
rather than change i put them in a corner till they are old enough to get away with it...