Disagreements with IMSA

[Dyson Mazda]

I think that we have way too much rehashed constructive? criticism that does not have to do with IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors in that thread. Thus, if disagree with the series about:

- The Lap Down Wave Around
- The current pit stop structure
- DP's/prototype performance balancing
- Spec Tires

then it should go in this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I hate all of those things too. I just get tired of it being the only conversation that happens about the series.

This thread should clean up that other thread a lot and should be able to talk about Entries, the Schedule, and Rumors a lot more efficiently in that thread (since these continuous conversations take up like 60-70% of it).

[Adam43]

Here here.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I think that we have way too much rehashed constructive? criticism that does not have to do with IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors in that thread.

Perhaps we should just rename the old thread.

I'm not sure there are enough positive things to talk about with TUSC, to keep a whole thread going, absent criticism.
I guess there are a few improvements from the dreadful 2014 season.
The significantly smaller full season entry should result in less cautions.
The Prototype BOP is less of an issue, now that virtually all the LMP2 teams have left. RLM is better than MRN...Actually ANYTHING would have been better than MRN. Theoretically, a team could show up to a TUSC race with an LMP1 car, now that IMSA is no longer enforcing the rules.

[jasonjessica09]

If any changes are to be made before Sebring when it comes to FCY/Pit Stop/Wave arounds then perhaps we'll hear something this week

[broadrun96]

Wow, do we need a millionth identical complaint thread? I didn't realize we were in the broken record business here but apparently so.

[Adam43]

This is the first such threads. The other million threads are actually race threads or entries or calendar threads.

No actual discussion about racing as it was drowned out.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Adam43

No actual discussion about racing as it was drowned out.

Well, given that IMSA is, in the opinion of some posters here, drowning the racing itself,
it is only logical that the race threads are drowned as well. How can you, e.g., talk about
Daytona without talking about your disagreements with IMSA wrt handling, e.g.,
the race result itself (P, PC, min driving time?), or the LDWB, or the pit procedures
(especially if these, somewhat comically, lead to pro drivers launching their cars with
their seatbelts unfastened and then crash because they're texting (fastening) while
driving and IMSA does what it does on top of it). If such a botching organization is
a constant accompaniment of these races ...

[Adam43]

Oh well. It was a nice idea to promote a wider range of discussion. And also give a bit more structure to the valid discussions about IMSA.

As you were

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

Well, given that IMSA is, in the opinion of some posters here, drowning the racing itself,
it is only logical that the race threads are drowned as well. How can you, e.g., talk about
Daytona without talking about your disagreements with IMSA wrt handling, e.g.,
the race result itself (P, PC, min driving time?), or the LDWB, or the pit procedures
(especially if these, somewhat comically, lead to pro drivers launching their cars with
their seatbelts unfastened and then crash because they're texting (fastening) while
driving and IMSA does what it does on top of it). If such a botching organization is
a constant accompaniment of these races ...

And that is the point of this thread, for posters like you so you, can consolidate your displeasure in one single place and not clog up the actual threads about the series rehashing the same 4/5 things you hate. Welcome to this thread. I think you are going to find that you are at home here.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Welcome to this thread. I think you are going to find that you are at home here.

Nah, I stated the things I hate(d) about IMSA already in umpteen places, no need to bulk it in here. I no longer follow.

I tried to express that IMSA mgmt & actions is an intrinsic part of IMSA-governed races. And if this intrinsic part is a fckup, well, so let's discuss this. If a driver makes a mistake during an event, like, say, re-joining the race-track in unsafe manner and causing havoc, it'll be discussed in the race thread, not in a 'driver mistakes of 2015' thread. It's just absurd, IMO.

Having stated this opinion, I shall now bid my farewell to this thread. Enjoy judging in this little chamber

[Adam43]

It is the repetitive general wave by or FCY or bop conversations that are tiresome. I believe that is the point. We know how the procedures work, what the good and bad points are, so why disrupt a race thread saying the same thing again? Again.

Of course that is why many of us have said farewell to the race, entry and calendar threads. They aren't the place to have new thoughts.

[FLGTFAN]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

And that is the point of this thread, for posters like you so you, can consolidate your displeasure in one single place and not clog up the actual threads about the series rehashing the same 4/5 things you hate. Welcome to this thread. I think you are going to find that you are at home here.

Whether you like it or not, a lot of people have opinions about TUSC that aren't going away - or going to a new thread. I love good news, but the TUSC schedule/entries thread would be dead without the people who care enough to have a gripe.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

Whether you like it or not, a lot of people have opinions about TUSC that aren't going away - or going to a new thread. I love good news, but the TUSC schedule/entries thread would be dead without the people who care enough to have a gripe.

Then let it die and fall to the historical pages. If the series cannot attract new teams to the series that we can talk about, we all know what the end result is anyways.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

Whether you like it or not, a lot of people have opinions about TUSC that aren't going away - or going to a new thread. I love good news, but the TUSC schedule/entries thread would be dead without the people who care enough to have a gripe.

Ah, but we have a bespoke place to move the gripes to now......

[Richard C]

I appreciate the idea of a thread like this, but it will be a failure with respect to the desired outcome. As annoying as it is to some you just can't say "all negative comments are to be segregated to this thread" and expect it to work. Maybe there needs to be a third thread in which all positive comments are to be placed? So the main "race" or "series" thread would be 100% factual, emotionless and unbiased information... assuming we could even agree upon what is factual and unbiased!

It is eminently unworkable and somewhat (I hate to say this as it risks being flamed)... a type of censorship. I say let it be. Opposing views are annoying and especially when repeated, but such is life on the Internet.

Richard

[Dyson Mazda]

This thread is NOT meant for all negative comments. It is just meant for comments that concern DP's/performance balancing, pit stop procedures, spec tires, and the lap down wave around thingy. All other negative comments are fair game (race officiating, too many cautions, how much PC's suck, etc.). These four topics are just on repeat at this point and I think everyone has made their point clear and most of us are on the same page at this point in time.

Whether you want to admit it or not this series is headed in the right direction and I still believe it to be the 2nd best sports car racing series on earth. Over the last 6 months we have had:

- Move to full GT3's in 2016
- The return of RLM
- Guarantees that the new prototype class will be ACO spec
- Very balanced competition in all 4 classes

I like where this is headed.

[Maelochs]

I see this thread as a place to gripe, while in race threads/entry threads we could sy things like, "Well, it was a great race except for the long cautions (see my comments in the " Disagreements with IMSA" thread) or "Another win for Action Express but how did WRT come from last to second? We know how") and then the rant about LDWB could be avoided because after all, we have hashed the issue into hash.

Or maybe every race thread should end with
- The Lap Down Wave Around (1–10)
- The current pit stop structure (1–10)
- DP's/prototype performance balancing (1–10)
- Spec Tires (1–10)

And people can rate their ire without expanding upon subjects which could be expanded upon here.

Like Dyson Mazda (and I did, and miss them) I feel that there is some good and some potential in TUSC. Obcviously the series is going to fight for a few years before succeeding or expiring, and a few years worth of generic, repetitive "Crap on IMSA" threads would get dull and also prevent actual discussions of IMSA.

TUSC is no longer a top-tier, heavy-hitter, world-class sports car series. ALMS was for a while, then it and Rolex (much earlier) faded into second-rate series, and merged. What came out of it is getting a little better, and is still a decent a show, just not what we want. At some point appreciating what is there Without carping about how it isn't what we wish it would be will keep us IndyCar forum status, where everybody spends all day arguing about 20 years ago and crapping on what is actually some very good racing, for what it is. (After all, the big difference between a pure BoP series and a spec series is the shape of the body work, ultimately.)

We don't need a Pollyanna, warm-and-fuzzy TUSC thread, just one which is not used to repeatedly rehash the very real and reasonable complaints we have with the series.

Maybe we need to start a thread called, "We all know TUSC sucks, but aside from that ..." where we can actually admit that, say, the 2015 Rolex 24 was a pretty good race and there weren't too many avoidable FCYs (maybe two in 24 hours) and the marshals did allow cars to try to restart, no "debris" yellows were called to "re-set" the field, and even the final yellow was absolutely needed.

FCYs are always going to be long when you don't want to split class battles (man, did some folks on the ALMSFans board cry when good GT battles were ruined by a pace car—now we cry because they aren't) and sometimes race officials will deem a car to be in a dangerous place where fans might disagree ... but given what the series had to work with, they really did pull off a fine event in January.

All that stuff gets lost when people (like me) insist on ranting about LDWB. Other valid criticisms of the series get lost because no one wants to wade through repetitive rants to find the one new idea.

Look, if every GT thread started "BoP has made GT racing a joke" and went south from there, discussion of GT racing would be pointless. But, judging from what's on this board, almost everyone loves it, in stand-alone series or TUSC and ELMS and WEC.

Every TUSC thread doesn't have to address the ills we all recognize. Those that do have a home now—their own little Dyson-Mazda-sphere.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I see this thread as a place to gripe, while in race threads/entry threads we could sy things like, "Well, it was a great race except for the long cautions (see my comments in the " Disagreements with IMSA" thread) or "Another win for Action Express but how did WRT come from last to second? We know how") and then the rant about LDWB could be avoided because after all, we have hashed the issue into hash.

Or maybe every race thread should end with
- The Lap Down Wave Around (1–10)
- The current pit stop structure (1–10)
- DP's/prototype performance balancing (1–10)
- Spec Tires (1–10)

And people can rate their ire without expanding upon subjects which could be expanded upon here.

Like Dyson Mazda (and I did, and miss them) I feel that there is some good and some potential in TUSC. Obcviously the series is going to fight for a few years before succeeding or expiring, and a few years worth of generic, repetitive "Crap on IMSA" threads would get dull and also prevent actual discussions of IMSA.

TUSC is no longer a top-tier, heavy-hitter, world-class sports car series. ALMS was for a while, then it and Rolex (much earlier) faded into second-rate series, and merged. What came out of it is getting a little better, and is still a decent a show, just not what we want. At some point appreciating what is there Without carping about how it isn't what we wish it would be will keep us IndyCar forum status, where everybody spends all day arguing about 20 years ago and crapping on what is actually some very good racing, for what it is. (After all, the big difference between a pure BoP series and a spec series is the shape of the body work, ultimately.)

We don't need a Pollyanna, warm-and-fuzzy TUSC thread, just one which is not used to repeatedly rehash the very real and reasonable complaints we have with the series.

Maybe we need to start a thread called, "We all know TUSC sucks, but aside from that ..." where we can actually admit that, say, the 2015 Rolex 24 was a pretty good race and there weren't too many avoidable FCYs (maybe two in 24 hours) and the marshals did allow cars to try to restart, no "debris" yellows were called to "re-set" the field, and even the final yellow was absolutely needed.

FCYs are always going to be long when you don't want to split class battles (man, did some folks on the ALMSFans board cry when good GT battles were ruined by a pace car—now we cry because they aren't) and sometimes race officials will deem a car to be in a dangerous place where fans might disagree ... but given what the series had to work with, they really did pull off a fine event in January.

All that stuff gets lost when people (like me) insist on ranting about LDWB. Other valid criticisms of the series get lost because no one wants to wade through repetitive rants to find the one new idea.

Look, if every GT thread started "BoP has made GT racing a joke" and went south from there, discussion of GT racing would be pointless. But, judging from what's on this board, almost everyone loves it, in stand-alone series or TUSC and ELMS and WEC.

Every TUSC thread doesn't have to address the ills we all recognize. Those that do have a home now—their own little Dyson-Mazda-sphere.

I generally believe that in 2017, TUSC will have better P2 and GTLM classes than the WEC, assuming they land the Ford GTE project. On top of that they should have a very strong GT3 field that I think has the chance to attract some very big international teams in the big events. I think this is a manageable goal for the series and I am confident that we will get there. They already have a great schedule and they continue to work hard to fix their initial mistakes.

They might not have the best P1 toys, but they will have a great schedule with a lot of teams that have numerous class wins and podiums at Le Mans. I think that the Bathurst 12 Hour, the 24 Hours of Spa, and the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring are really great events and they do not boast the most elite GT machinery. I think this is what TUSC needs to get to and I will be really happy with that.

[David A Scott]

I personally think that BOP stinks. It shouldn't be in any series that wants to call itself professional. Isn't racing about "building the better mousetrap"? This isn't NASCAR. If someone shows up with a better car and laps the field they shouldn't be penalized for being successful.

[Maelochs]

Yup ... BoP (in GT classes) is a necessary evil due to the difference between sports car manufacturing five decades ago versus today.

As has been stated before, Likely only Ferrari would ever win if all the GTLM cars were built to a single ruleset, because Ferrari is the closest to a full-on racer right out of the box. Lambo or Audi could step up the GTLM and be competitive, but Aston, Corvette, Viper, Porsche .... doubtful. Tough to beat a light, powerful mid-engined car with either a giant lump of metal hanging off the front or and small and underpowered lump hanging off the back.

I could say BoP has ruined GT racing, or I could say the car business did it, or capitalism. fact is, no BoP = no GT. People are all psyched about GT3 ... but hate GT3 rules everywhere else (full-on BoP--build it and we will dilute it or boost it until everyone has the same mousetrap.)

Fact of racing life right now. Best we can hope for it the series gets it right.

[CyberMotor]

First, the thread is mis-labled.

Most long-time fans do not have a beef with IMSA.

A majority of the 'negative' comments have come from people watching a demise of something that was the best in the world.

Hint, hint, this wasn't IMSA at work.

I suggest a relabeling of the thread.

[FLGTFAN]

Even the purists among us can agree that some sort of rules (BOP) equivalency is necessary. But why does it need to be so frequent? I'm sorry to say, but it seems we have lost the ebb and flow of the different factory programs - to a point that they all seem the same.

[DeezPutz]

The world needed another thread to complain about a series people allege to not watch or care about.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

As has been stated before, Likely only Ferrari would ever win if all the GTLM cars were built to a single ruleset, because Ferrari is the closest to a full-on racer right out of the box. Lambo or Audi could step up the GTLM and be competitive, but Aston, Corvette, Viper, Porsche .... doubtful. Tough to beat a light, powerful mid-engined car with either a giant lump of metal hanging off the front or and small and underpowered lump hanging off the back.

You really like to read yourself writing complete BS, don't you?

There's a front engined LMP and you somehow think a lightweight, front mid-engined car is at disadvantage to a lightweight rear mid-engined car when road requirements mean they have approximately the same dimensions and scope for aerodynamics and in a racing car they are both equally capable of reaching the desired weight distribution for the tires?

How did the 360 and 430 not win every race when the class had no equivalency other than displacement and weight class if it's impossible to beat a rear mid engine car?

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

You really like to read yourself writing complete BS, don't you?

There's a front engined LMP and you somehow think a lightweight, front mid-engined car is at disadvantage to a lightweight rear mid-engined car when road requirements mean they have approximately the same dimensions and scope for aerodynamics and in a racing car they are both equally capable of reaching the desired weight distribution for the tires?

How did the 360 and 430 not win every race when the class had no equivalency other than displacement and weight class if it's impossible to beat a rear mid engine car?

I think if you took all of the road cars that race in GTLM (458, C7R, Vantage, 911, Z4) the Ferrari would win the majority of the time based on the car's cited performance.

And yes, every GT series on the planet has gone through some serious performance balancing whether you like it or not. In saying that GT3 has become the best GT platform that we have seen in sports car racing in quite some time. They always put on a great show.