NZ V8SC

[Beages]

Just have a question to all in the know.

This really bugs me. Why did New Zealand go to the trouble of designing their own V8 race car so close to V8SC. Why didn’t they just pay V8SC a fee and adopt our COTF rules and regs. I know NZ doesnt have the comercial backing like Australia, but COTF was always going to be about cost reduction. The extra chassis and components would further reduce costs. They could even send their top six car over for Bathurst, It seems a no brainer to me.
Thoughts...

[adbutler]

i think you'll find that the v8 supertourers are significantly cheaper to build that the v8sc. i'm sure that someone will correct me if i'm wrong.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Beages

Just have a question to all in the know.

This really bugs me. Why did New Zealand go to the trouble of designing their own V8 race car so close to V8SC. Why didn’t they just pay V8SC a fee and adopt our COTF rules and regs. I know NZ doesnt have the comercial backing like Australia, but COTF was always going to be about cost reduction. The extra chassis and components would further reduce costs. They could even send their top six car over for Bathurst, It seems a no brainer to me.
Thoughts...

Hi Calibri,

You need to be aware of some facts.

Firstly, our prototype car and Chassis was designed and built before the new COFT car.

Secondly, our complete car cost less than half the price, of the COFT car

Thirdly, our cars are 100% controlled, all have an identical Pace Innovations built chassis, all have the exact same A$20k 7 litre alloy engine, exact same suspension, dampers etc, and of course the exact same gearbox in the same location as a standard car.

Our rear wing is unique to V8ST as is our front splitter, the fact that a quick glance they may seem similar is down to the fact that they are both based on the VE Commodore and FG Ford, as yet we have no Nissan's or Mercedes bodied car's.

I trust the proceeding helps your better understanding of the differences between the two categories.

Mark Petch.
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers Limited.

[promax]

was the prototype built a NZV8 or a st?

[Beages]

Thanks for the reply Mark.
Ok, so it looks like the engine is the biggest hurdle... 20k V 100k x how ever many engines required for a season. I still think it would of been worth while waiting for COFT as everyone knew it was coming. The benefits of joining the Australian series for endurance rounds may have been a plus for NZ sponsors. I'm in no way puting your series down, its just that it would have been nice playing under the same rules...dare i say, just like the Group A days.

[NZSTfan]

I can see your point Beages, just like the other argument of why not buy up all the old blueprint cars that will no doubt be flooding the market and use them. But i'd imagine the budget involved to run those cars (or even the COTF) would be far above what most NZ teams could afford. I have heard (and happy to be corrected here) that the cost of 1 year in ST's is about the same as 1 round in supercars.

From my point of view as fan/spectator, i really enjoy the fact that these cars are actually quite different, and have a kiwi slant on them. The cars at the end of the day seem to be very similar in performance to a supercar (although we may not get to see them share the same track space at the same time for a while yet ) and they do look very different when you look at them hard enough and take in the significant aero differences.

Its a cost restraining/capping formula which suits NZ in my views.

The other thing of interest is the amount of issues which occured at Adelaide, gearbox issues, heat issues etc etc. To iron them out in Aus is not a big deal, but for a team to iron them out over here could be the difference between racing and not racing on the weekends. And yes there where issues in the ST's, some quite big ones in fact, but it seems that the category handled it well and as cost effectively as possible. To the point where there are more cars this year, and more hopefully on the way. The class seems to be attractive to some

Unless of course they just went with COTF bare chassis and put their 7L engine, quaife gearbox, and live rear axles into those. But i'd still bet it is cheaper doing it the way they are.

Good point though...

[one five five]

I think the more relevant question is, given the V8SuperTourers chassis came out first, why didn't V8Supercars see sense and either adopt their regs, or at the very least try and meet in the middle for a common set of regulations?

[promax]

st didn't exists in 08 when V8SC first started talking about COTF. with all the in fighting going on over here.. why would V8SC join up with a series that may or maynot ever get off the ground? of course the st series did go ahead.. and they're well into their 2nd season now

[dirtymacca]

Originally Posted by one five five

I think the more relevant question is, given the V8SuperTourers chassis came out first, why didn't V8Supercars see sense and either adopt their regs, or at the very least try and meet in the middle for a common set of regulations?

Because Mark Skaife was involved...... a driver desining a car will always be a pain... Engineers design cars, drivers drive them.
The cost blow out Aussie V8's lies squarly at Mr Skaifes feet!

[raymond]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

Because Mark Skaife was involved...... a driver desining a car will always be a pain... Engineers design cars, drivers drive them.
The cost blow out Aussie V8's lies squarly at Mr Skaifes feet!

Really??...honestly??
Not sure about your theory of drivers should drive and engineers design cars, I've seen some real engineering failures such as the 120Y over the years!
Conversely; some of the so-called drivers should maybe try their hand at designing because they are not to flash at the driving bit...

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by raymond

Really??...honestly??
Not sure about your theory of drivers should drive and engineers design cars, I've seen some real engineering failures such as the 120Y over the years!
Conversely; some of the so-called drivers should maybe try their hand at designing because they are not to flash at the driving bit...

It doesn't matter which side of the Tasman you are on, there always seems to be someone moaning about getting bad Marks...

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

Because Mark Skaife was involved...... a driver desining a car will always be a pain... Engineers design cars, drivers drive them.
The cost blow out Aussie V8's lies squarly at Mr Skaifes feet!

True, I mean Bruce McLaren, Jack Brabham, Andy Rouse, Henri Pescorolo etc all sucked at driving didn't they.

[MacrosNZ]

Although Bruce did study engineering at Auckland.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Beages

Thanks for the reply Mark.
Ok, so it looks like the engine is the biggest hurdle... 20k V 100k x how ever many engines required for a season. I still think it would of been worth while waiting for COFT as everyone knew it was coming.

One engine costs 20k, the other 100k, and you still thnk NZ should be running v8sc rules??? Stay away from any jobs involving finance please!

If anything, it seems v8sc would be better of adoptng the NZ rules. (I haven't read too much of the NZ threads, I don't get the 7 litre engine, a bit much, me thinks)

Originally Posted by Beages

The benefits of joining the Australian series for endurance rounds may have been a plus for NZ sponsors. I'm in no way puting your series down, its just that it would have been nice playing under the same rules...dare i say, just like the Group A days.

They still could race the 1000. Maybe, they could race in an invitational class at the 12h? Woud that be good enough for you?

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Hi Calibri,
You need to be aware of some facts.
......all have the exact same A$20k 7 litre alloy engine, ..
Mark Petch.

That may have been the origional intention but from what I am aware the engines are now in a variety of different specs. And at the cost of the competitors.
Some with blueprinted short blocks, some with upgraded pistons and rods, and others stock standard. And all technically legal.
And A$20K is now just a dream.

[MalcolmC]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

One engine costs 20k, the other 100k..... I don't get the 7 litre engine

7 litre = cheap horsepower. The answer was in your own post.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by JamesK

That may have been the origional intention but from what I am aware the engines are now in a variety of different specs. And at the cost of the competitors.
Some with blueprinted short blocks, some with upgraded pistons and rods, and others stock standard. And all technically legal.
And A$20K is now just a dream.

Hi JamesK,

Hopefully you are not simply posting such misinformation as someone who does not like V8ST, myself, what ever, and if thats indeed the case, and you have been given false or misleading information, then here are the facts.

A/ The basic engine cost is still $20K.

B/ Only the bottom-end of the engine can be rebuilt, under very strict guideline and each engine is inspected and sealed with 5 individual seals by our chief Scrutineer.

C/ our teams can also purchase a brand new Long engine C/w with the upgraded piston for $16K. The OEM upgraded piston is identical in every respect, material, cast as apposed to forged etc, the only difference is that GM redesigned the gudgeon pin boss, to make this area of the piston stronger, and more resistant to an over rev.

The new Dailey Engineering dry sump kit cost each competitor 4K as a one off cost, so it would be fair to say that the cost of a complete new car, has increased by $4K.

Finally every single team had the opportunity to purchase a new long block engine, with the new upgraded pistons, if they wished, and the only thing that does not come with the long engine is the inlet manifold, exhaust manifolds and water pump. Personally speaking that is a remarkably cheap brand new engine, that only requires the labour to change over the missing inlet manifold's etc, and of course the Dailey engineering dry sump.

There are still 14 engines in service this weekend that have never been serviced and some of these engines will have over 7,000 kilometres on them, so its fair to say that the teams concerned are confident in their drivers not to over rev them by selecting to lower gear!

Campbell Little, former Chief Technical engineer with FPR was reported in Auto Action 2 years ago, saying that they FPR cannot even "freshen up" their engines for less than A$30k!

I trust that the information I have taken the time to post for you and any other interested party assist your better understanding of the facts surrounding our engines.

Mark Petch,
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers.

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Hi JamesK,

Hopefully you are not simply posting such misinformation as someone who does not like V8ST, myself, what ever, and if thats indeed the case, and you have been given false or misleading information, then here are the facts.

Mark Petch,
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers.

Hi Mark

Not At all, as per my earlier post
1/ Engines in a variety of specs, confirmed as per your post
2/ At a cost of the competitors, confirmed as per your post.
3/ All technically legal, apparently acceptable as per your post.
4/ $20K just a dream, well yes. You stated "all have the exact same $20K engine"

Did you not strongly recommend to all teams to upgrade the pistons and rods in their origional engine plus recommend to blueprint the bottom end.
The est. cost of all this another $20K.
Following your recommendations the real cost of the origional engine is now approx $45K with the dry sump.

Is not the basic $20K engine you indicated the same as that origionally supplied, therefore purchase the new basic engine and you still have another $20K to spend if you follow your own recommendations.
Also wasnt those mods recommended by GM.

Of the 14 engines you indicated will be in service this weekend that have not yet been serviced (against your recommendations) please advise the number of those 14 that have had only the mains and big ends replaced, you have obviously forgottten those.

I can see nothing misleading or false in MY post.

[Swedish Brick]

There was also the issue of the announcement about allowed engine changes a week before the 1st event this season. But some teams had already made the changes. Hence the differing specs for a while at least

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

There are still 14 engines in service this weekend that have never been serviced and some of these engines will have over 7,000 kilometres on them, so its fair to say that the teams concerned are confident in their drivers not to over rev them by selecting to lower gear!

Mark Petch,
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers.

hi Mark, can you please give us a breakdown of where the "7000km" comes from??

i don't believe the cars are doing close to 1000km per round, are they ????

[Alpina107]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

hi Mark, can you please give us a breakdown of where the "7000km" comes from??

i don't believe the cars are doing close to 1000km per round, are they ????

It probably wouldn't be too far away from 7,000km for some of the cars. The first 8 rounds (4 sprint and 3 endurance last year) plus HD sprint to open this season would total well over 4,000 km of race, practice and qualifying.

I don't know what the rules say about testing, but I've seen/heard heaps of them at HD over the last 15 months, so it must be fairly open. I wouldn't be surprised if some cars have 10-15 test days under their belts, a very conservative 100 laps per day, and suddenly you have over 7k on the clock.

Maybe Mark or one of the teams can confirm this sort of total. They probably monitor time, rather than km, so we're only talking about 50 or 60 hours of "hot" running.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by JamesK

Hi Mark

Not At all, as per my earlier post
1/ Engines in a variety of specs, confirmed as per your post
2/ At a cost of the competitors, confirmed as per your post.
3/ All technically legal, apparently acceptable as per your post.
4/ $20K just a dream, well yes. You stated "all have the exact same $20K engine"

Did you not strongly recommend to all teams to upgrade the pistons and rods in their origional engine plus recommend to blueprint the bottom end.
The est. cost of all this another $20K.
Following your recommendations the real cost of the origional engine is now approx $45K with the dry sump.

Is not the basic $20K engine you indicated the same as that origionally supplied, therefore purchase the new basic engine and you still have another $20K to spend if you follow your own recommendations.
Also wasnt those mods recommended by GM.

Of the 14 engines you indicated will be in service this weekend that have not yet been serviced (against your recommendations) please advise the number of those 14 that have had only the mains and big ends replaced, you have obviously forgottten those.

I can see nothing misleading or false in MY post.

JamesK,

Your reply, suggest you have an issue in accepting the facts.

I can only repeat the facts, either you accept them graciously, or you dont, the decision is yours.

To suggest that it has, or will cost a team $45K for a new spec engine, ie. with the upgraded piston's and connecting rods could be called not only misleading but mischievous in its intent, I am not accusing you of that, however, I am saying the in the eyes of many people you could appear to be like a "dog with a bone" simply not wanting to let it go.

In the use-full life of a motorsport engine, it's not unusual to spend money freshening that engine, as was and is still the case with a TL spec NZV8's engine.

In our case the V8ST team owner has two recommended option's.

Option 1. Service the bottom-end, by replacing the piston's [which come complete with new Titanium connecting rods etc,] at a cost of $7,000, plus gaskets, bearing shells etc, a further $1000, and a fixed price labour content of $3,000, and finally a engine tech and resealing fee of $375, and the total cost is well under $12K plus GST.

Option 2. Purchase a brand new "Long engine" for $16,000, blue-print the bottom end of that engine for a fixed labour cost of $2,000, plus gaskets, bearing shell's etc if needed, for a further $1,000 and you have a brand new blue-printed Long engine for $19,000, plus GST.


Option 2 also allows the used long engine to be sold on Trade-me, or the like for say $10,000, and the complete, brand new replacement engine, effectively cost the team owner less than $10K. I know of no other form of premium racing series were the engine cost are so inexpensive, including the TRS series were you pay $15K just to lease the engine each season.

Mark Petch.
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers Ltd

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Alpina107

It probably wouldn't be too far away from 7,000km for some of the cars. The first 8 rounds (4 sprint and 3 endurance last year) plus HD sprint to open this season would total well over 4,000 km of race, practice and qualifying.

I don't know what the rules say about testing, but I've seen/heard heaps of them at HD over the last 15 months, so it must be fairly open. I wouldn't be surprised if some cars have 10-15 test days under their belts, a very conservative 100 laps per day, and suddenly you have over 7k on the clock.

Maybe Mark or one of the teams can confirm this sort of total. They probably monitor time, rather than km, so we're only talking about 50 or 60 hours of "hot" running.

Hi 'Alpina',

a good example is JMR's car #47 is still going strong with better than 7,000K on the original engine, no doubt due to the amount of Hot Laps days the team does.

Mark Petch.

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

JamesK,

Your reply, suggest you have an issue in accepting the facts.

Mark Petch.
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers Ltd

I have no problems as long as they are accurate facts.
I have already shown and proven 3 of the 4 statements I origionally made are factual, and attemped to show the 4th as such.

I did not state "will cost a team $45K for a new spec engine" I stated " the real cost of the origional engine is now approx $45K with the dry sump."
This was based on the GM price of $14,000 you indicated to the teams could be the price for pistons and rods dependant on availability.

It is a known FACT that some of the teams have been forced to spend money on some of these upgrades, and not as you have put by "it's not unusual to spend money freshening that engine"

If you are quoting FACTS, then please answer my earlier question
"Of the 14 engines you indicated will be in service this weekend that have not yet been serviced (against your recommendations) please advise the number of those 14 that have had only the mains and big ends replaced."
It is a known FACT that more than 6 engines you have indicated, have either been replaced, blueprinted or had some form of internals replaced, I would call any of that servicing.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by JamesK

I have no problems as long as they are accurate facts.
I have already shown and proven 3 of the 4 statements I origionally made are factual, and attemped to show the 4th as such.

I did not state "will cost a team $45K for a new spec engine" I stated " the real cost of the origional engine is now approx $45K with the dry sump."
This was based on the GM price of $14,000 you indicated to the teams could be the price for pistons and rods dependant on availability.

It is a known FACT that some of the teams have been forced to spend money on some of these upgrades, and not as you have put by "it's not unusual to spend money freshening that engine"

If you are quoting FACTS, then please answer my earlier question
"Of the 14 engines you indicated will be in service this weekend that have not yet been serviced (against your recommendations) please advise the number of those 14 that have had only the mains and big ends replaced."
It is a known FACT that more than 6 engines you have indicated, have either been replaced, blueprinted or had some form of internals replaced, I would call any of that servicing.

"JamesK'


You and every other poster knows who I am, and most know how to get hold of me if they want to.

If you want to continue this attempt at a public inquisition, then I suggest that you declare who you are, and what team you are obviously with, on this forum, instead of hiding behind an alias, and I will happily debate it with you on the that basis.

If you dont want to publicly reveal who you are, then I invite you to email me your questions, and I will respond as long as I know to whom I am responding, otherwise this is my last post on the subject.

My email is mark@v8supertourers.co.nz which I suspect you well know anyway.

Mark Petch.
Technical Director,
V8 Supertourers Limited.