Surtees TS15

[znarfg]

Hello all,
have anyone information about the cassis numbers of Surtees TS 15 Formula 2 Cars. How many cars was build?

[Jeremy Jackson]

At least 12 in 1973, according to a list David McKinney produced on TNF. The 1974 TS15As seem a bit more suspect.

[znarfg]

Thanks to Jeremy,
I'm looking for the cassis numbers of the different Teams, the Fina Team with Derek Bell, Jochen Mass, Andrea de Adamich, Torsten Palm-, the Matchbox Team with Carlos Pace, Mike Hailwood, the Hesketh Team with James Hunt.
Did anyone knows the numbers??

[Dan Rear]

Presumably some of the F At cars were included in the list of 12. Peter Wardle had an F At car over here in 73-74, Bob Salisbury too. I presume these were built as Atlantics, rather than F2 converts.

[Chris Townsend]

TS15-01 Debuted by Hailwood, 1972 Temporada. Sold to David McConnell for 1973. 1975 maybe the car that surfaces in the hands of Gerd Biechteler

TS15-02 Works car for Jochen Mass

TS15-03 Works car for Hailwood and Derek Bell. Possibly rebuilt into TS15A-03 in 1974.

TS15-04 Sold new to Graeme Lawrence [NZ] retained to 1975 then to Rex Hart. 1982 to Ken Smith

TS15-05 Rented to Hesketh for James Hunt. Returned to works and used in 1974 by John Watson and Jose Dolhem

TS15-06 Sold new to Peter Wardle for UK F.Atlantic. Retained to end 1975, then to Steve Carvill. Maybe the car used by Jim Ravenscroft in 1977.

TS15-07 Sold new to Bob Gerard for Robert Salisbury

TS15-08 Not known in 73-74. According to F1R the car used by Francy Jerancic 1975-78 in Euro F2 and may have been the de Adamich car which was never raced.

TS15-09 Works car Mike Hailwood

TS15-10 Not known

TS15-11 Not known

TS15-12 Works car Jochen Mass

Two cars are sold new where I can't find a reference to chassis number. One of these is to de Adamich, which isn't raced in 1973, the other to Takahashi Yorino in Japan - presumably these are accounted for by numbers 8, 10, 11
I can't tell you which works car was used in which race.

All numbers come from a mixture of Motoring News, Autosport, F1R and NZ Motor Action.

After 1973 there seem to be a lot of TS15s in Japan [any help appreciated]
They appear in the hands of
Matsuaki Sanada
Kikuo Kaira [this could be Sanada's car]
Masahiro Hasemi
Jiro Yoneyama [retained to 1977]
Kazuyoshi Hoshino

TS15A [1974] All except chassis 5 were fitted with BMW M12 engine
These numbers are more suspect since they come from F1R not MN

01. Works for Fausto Morello
02: Works for Guillermo Ortega
03: Works for Tim Schenken. Advertised recently from France with a history post Surtees of Yves Courage [1977-78] then Germain Drouet in hillclimbs to 1989
04: Works: John Watson
05: BDA engine. Works: Jose Dolhem, then 1975 to Pechek for Hans Meier

The only mystery car so far after this is the one owned by Otto Stuppacher and run by Ewald Boisitz in 1975 - though this might be a mis-appelation of the Biechteler TS15.

[znarfg]

Hi Chris,
thanks for the informations. I've found a chassis in Germany. I think it's the former Biechteler car. Your information may be helpfull to identify the car.

[Dan Rear]

Does the aborted 'TS17' supposed Essex F5000 fit into this picture at all? Rumoured to be being made in 1974-75 IIRC...

[Chris Townsend]

Does anyone know anything about the 'ex Mass' TS15 raced by Kevin Taylor in northern libre races in 1978?
I'm hoping that someone might have noted the plate.

[znarfg]

I have seen the car yesterday. It's the former Guillermo Ortega car. It's a rolling chassis, without engine and gearbox but in good condition (private museum). The car is available. If someone are interested contact me by a private message.

[Dan Rear]

A late '75 AS reports that our old mate Peter Wardle was hoping to be part of a 3 car TS15 team in 76 Atlantic. As well as his own car, he hoped to be joined by Steve Carvill in the 'ex-Hesketh' TS15. No mention of the 3rd one tho'.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

After 1973 there seem to be a lot of TS15s in Japan [any help appreciated]
They appear in the hands of
Matsuaki Sanada
Kikuo Kaira [this could be Sanada's car]
Masahiro Hasemi
Jiro Yoneyama [retained to 1977]
Kazuyoshi Hoshino

Just happen to have been looking at Japanese F2 data (don't ask!!) and I think there were only two TS15s in Japan.

Takashi Yorino appears in one TS15 late 1973 and this same car (same team name) appears at the start of 1974 for Mitsuaki Sanada. Then, at round 2, a second TS15 appears: one TS15 is now with Kojima Engineering (Hasemi and Hoshino in 1974) and the other with Jirou Yoneyama's team. The latter car is driven by Yoneyama (and Kikuo Kaira once) to the end of 1977. Meanwhile, the other TS15 appears to pass to the Yatsuka team and is driven by Tetsu Okada (and Kunimitsu Takahashi in 1975) through to the end of 1977.

As Kojima Engineering weren't your second-hand-car sort of a team, I'd assume one car went new to Kojima for 1974 and then to the Yatsuka team while Yorino's 1973 car went to Yoneyama.

I can't see a result for Yorino before the JAF GP on 11 November so it's possible this was one of the many missing 1973 works cars. However, I have no idea where else a TS15 could have been racing in the Far East in 1973.

Allen

[JRTM]

Just in passing - I presume folks know that John Bladon owned the experimental chassis (Chassis Exp) . It only raced in the Temporada with Carlos Pace and then Andrea De A. John Surtees has just bought it back supposedly to restore for son Henry!

Cheers

John

[John Turner]

Mark Griffith's TS15-07, Brands Hatch Superprix, 7 May, 2006:-

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

TS15A [1974] All except chassis 5 were fitted with BMW M12 engine
These numbers are more suspect since they come from F1R not MN

01. Works for Fausto Morello
02: Works for Guillermo Ortega
03: Works for Tim Schenken. Advertised recently from France with a history post Surtees of Yves Courage [1977-78] then Germain Drouet in hillclimbs to 1989
04: Works: John Watson
05: BDA engine. Works: Jose Dolhem, then 1975 to Pechek for Hans Meier

The only mystery car so far after this is the one owned by Otto Stuppacher and run by Ewald Boisitz in 1975 - though this might be a mis-appelation of the Biechteler TS15.

Yves Courage's car first appears at Saint-Gouéno 24 Aug 1975 and is noted as ex-Schenken.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

TS15-06 Sold new to Peter Wardle for UK F.Atlantic. Retained to end 1975, then to Steve Carvill. Maybe the car used by Jim Ravenscroft in 1977.

TS15-07 Sold new to Bob Gerard for Robert Salisbury

I have just found a fly in the ointment. Ravenscroft turns up at Silverstone for a libre race in September 1976 in his "newly acquired Atlantic Surtees TS15" (AS 30 Sep 1976 p45). As Carvill and Wardle continue to race the #208 TS15-06 four more times that season, Ravenscroft can't have their car.

The only other TS15 used in UK Atlantic was Gerard's TS15-07, last seen at the end of 1973.

Allen

[fyrth]

Today - Hillclimb and Sprint Assn. test day at Llandow. TS15, chassis 15?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by fyrth

Today - Hillclimb and Sprint Assn. test day at Llandow. TS15, chassis 15?

The Peter Voigt car?

[Chris Townsend]

Chassis 15 seems a little high, given the last number I have in the build run is 12 for Mass in late 73
But what a nice looking car the TS15 was

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

TS15-01 Debuted by Hailwood, 1972 Temporada. Sold to David McConnell for 1973. 1975 maybe the car that surfaces in the hands of Gerd Biechteler

TS15-02 Works car for Jochen Mass

TS15-03 Works car for Hailwood and Derek Bell. Possibly rebuilt into TS15A-03 in 1974.

TS15-04 Sold new to Graeme Lawrence [NZ] retained to 1975 then to Rex Hart. 1982 to Ken Smith

TS15-05 Rented to Hesketh for James Hunt. Returned to works and used in 1974 by John Watson and Jose Dolhem

TS15-06 Sold new to Peter Wardle for UK F.Atlantic. Retained to end 1975, then to Steve Carvill. Maybe the car used by Jim Ravenscroft in 1977.

TS15-07 Sold new to Bob Gerard for Robert Salisbury

TS15-08 Not known in 73-74. According to F1R the car used by Francy Jerancic 1975-78 in Euro F2 and may have been the de Adamich car which was never raced.

TS15-09 Works car Mike Hailwood

TS15-10 Not known

TS15-11 Not known

TS15-12 Works car Jochen Mass

Two cars are sold new where I can't find a reference to chassis number. One of these is to de Adamich, which isn't raced in 1973, the other to Takahashi Yorino in Japan - presumably these are accounted for by numbers 8, 10, 11
I can't tell you which works car was used in which race.

All numbers come from a mixture of Motoring News, Autosport, F1R and NZ Motor Action.

I just noticed a couple of things from Autosport reports that might be new. When Surtees enters two TS15s at Rouen in 1974 for De Dryver and Dieudonné and then withdraws them again, the spare TS15 then used by Watson for the race is said to be ex-de Adamich. Then at Mugello, Dolham's TS15-Hart is said to be ex-Mass; it's not clear whether this is a different one to the TS15-Hart he's driven in preceding races.

[allenbrown]

A couple more snippets from Motoring News. At Salzburg in 1975, two TS15s appears: "the ex-Ortega Surtees-BMW TS15 01" for Biechteler and the "ex-Watson car (TS158)", a Hart car, for Jerancic. I would presume that the former is TS15A/01.

[allenbrown]

Am I becoming obsessed?

Hans Meier and Ewald Boisitz later turn up in a pair of TS15As run by Ace Woodington of Space Racing. Meier is pretty quick in his car, TS15A-05, but wrecks it at Zolder. This car is said to be ex-Watson and is a BMW car, casting some doubt on the F1R numbers quoted above.

Does Ace still post here? He might be able to say where they came from and where they went.

[Chris Townsend]

Allen

The Boisitz car at Silverstone is said by Autosport to be ex Dolhem; Meier's is ex Watson, but AS helps us more by describing it as the experimental car driven by Watson. This would make it, I guess, the car that Watson shows up with at Pau in 1974 [described as an experimental car with a three tiered wing incorporating water radiators] but probably not the car he uses previously at Hockenheim [described as one of last season's cars, and said to be the car driven by Dolhem at Pau] Bell drives this experimental car [005] at Hockenheim 9 June 74.

Dolhem's 1974 car is more difficult to identify.
At Pau he has the car used by Watson at the first Hockenheim
At Mugello, 14 July he has a TS15 described as ex Mass by Autosport
At Enna he uses Watson's spare after shunting his own in first practice and and Watson chose to use the experimental car [005]. Watson's spare at Rouen is described as the ex de Adamich car from 1973 that he never raced [Watson ends up using it in the race]

Meier wrecks 005 at Zolder and uses the Dolhem-Boisitz car at Nogaro [MN is wrong here; AS gives this] But at Vallelunga, according to AS he's back in the ex Watson car.

Chris

[RS250]

Surtees TS15 chassis 006 was in the Coys auction at Autosport International at the weekend. Among the spares was a second tub 007.

[allenbrown]

That rings a bell. Some place in Crewe early in 1980. Two TS15s in the back of a lock-up. It'll come to me in a minute.

[Dan Rear]

Lodge Corner Agencies, Allen? David Winstanley.