Do the FIA calculate weights throughout the race

Notso Swift · 2 Oct 2006, 05:32 (Ref:1724908)

Based on two precedents BAR at Imola 05 (fuel load) and BMW at Hungary 06 (tyre wear leading to the car being under weight) do the FIA weigh the old tyres that come of the cars during the race to check that a vehicle has not gone underwieght at any time during the GP?
Rules are quite clear that the cur must be at or above the minimum racing weight at all time.
If not, why not; or indeed, should they?

bosch! · 2 Oct 2006, 07:24 (Ref:1724950)

NO!

I was quite clear for some time from basic mathematics and I aint no maths genious, that many teams including but no limited to those racing in red were running underweight during races but noone wanted to know. BAR got pinged for it and I guess it stopped.

For example cars seemed to run very, very fast just before pit stops then take on what mathematicaly seemed like excessive fuel before the last pit stop and were never as quick at the end of the race as before the pit stops when theoretically the track should have maximum grip.

Go figure....

**Adam43** · 2 Oct 2006, 08:32 (Ref:1725007)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosch!

For example cars seemed to run very, very fast just before pit stops then take on what mathematicaly seemed like excessive fuel before the last pit stop and were never as quick at the end of the race as before the pit stops when theoretically the track should have maximum grip.

Do you have any figures for this calculation?

The cars are weighed dry after the race so it doesn't matter how much fuel they put in at the last stop - it won't make it legal if they are underweight.

They run fast before the last pit stop because they are light and battling for position. At the end of the race they are normally in settled positions so it would be silly to run as fast as you can. Having said that quite often people put in fast laps at the end of the race. I remember many being called daft for driving so quick on the last lap.

Notso Swift was talking about the tyres being worn. I don't think they do weigh them. I am not sure it is a big issue.

Sodemo · 2 Oct 2006, 10:30 (Ref:1725132)

Ive always thought it would be a good idea if they did spot checks during the race, so at random they would be called into the weigh bridge to get weighed.

Red · 2 Oct 2006, 10:39 (Ref:1725145)

Of course, everyone would be thrilled to waste extra seconds for those checkups. Briatore goes ballistic as per default attitude, but if one of his cars would be selected fowr random weighing he'd get apoplexy!

Marbot · 2 Oct 2006, 10:47 (Ref:1725153)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

Ive always thought it would be a good idea if they did spot checks during the race, so at random they would be called into the weigh bridge to get weighed.

You forgot to put a smilie on the end

............didn't you?

**Adam43** · 2 Oct 2006, 12:07 (Ref:1725213)

People have developed a system that weighs trucks as they pass over, to see if they are breaking the law. Could a similar thing be used? I have no idea how accurate they are or what speeds they work at. Actually you would have to be staitionary to lose the downforce.

Install one in every box? Or accept it? Fuel isn't an issue, it is only tyres.

Notso Swift · 2 Oct 2006, 22:24 (Ref:1725716)

YEs, tyre, and you can weigh them after they have been used (ie off the car) to work out if the car wen under weight. car at end is on the minimum weight , tyres at end weigh 60, but tyres that came off weigh 55, so car must have been under (excluding the fuel load, which we know cannot be used as ballast)

bosch! · 3 Oct 2006, 08:15 (Ref:1726020)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Do you have any figures for this calculation?

The cars are weighed dry after the race so it doesn't matter how much fuel they put in at the last stop - it won't make it legal if they are underweight.

They run fast before the last pit stop because they are light and battling for position. At the end of the race they are normally in settled positions so it would be silly to run as fast as you can. Having said that quite often people put in fast laps at the end of the race. I remember many being called daft for driving so quick on the last lap.

Notso Swift was talking about the tyres being worn. I don't think they do weigh them. I am not sure it is a big issue.

I dont think that they were that insistant on the dry bit before they pinged BAR for the reserve tank. It has oft been commented that a few teams were anxious that BAR not be given an oportunity to protest their exclusion at the event least worms be released from cans.

It would be easy enough to scrape the marbles off of the tyres at the end of the race and then weigh the cars, you can argue that this should be done to give a representative weight of the cars at the end of the race. I believe that 2+kgs of marbles are easily collected on the slowing down lap. If you dont believe that this can be the difference between legal and illegal ask Kubica.

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2006, 08:32 (Ref:1726042)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosch!

I dont think that they were that insistant on the dry bit before they pinged BAR for the reserve tank. It has oft been commented that a few teams were anxious that BAR not be given an oportunity to protest their exclusion at the event least worms be released from cans.

There was reason to insist on it for BAR! All the otehr teams were fine although there was a lot of smoke about others having similar tanks (which they did but that wasn't the point) etc... All covered elsewhere. The only reason to bring it up was to say that fuel isn't an issue here and the assertion that teams put more fuel in at the last stop to bring it over the weight limit is false.

Quote:

It would be easy enough to scrape the marbles off of the tyres at the end of the race and then weigh the cars, you can argue that this should be done to give a representative weight of the cars at the end of the race. I believe that 2+kgs of marbles are easily collected on the slowing down lap. If you dont believe that this can be the difference between legal and illegal ask Kubica.

Picking marbles up has been a technique for decades. Scraping them of isn't really practical. You may take some of the tyre with you.

The current system is fine. There is a cut off that everyone has to be over. All teams should make sure that they run sufficiently above the cut off as to nor risk exclusion. Occassional running under because of tyres is not really against the spirit, although it is unfortunate when it trips someone up as it did in Hungary.

FPV GTHO · 3 Oct 2006, 08:36 (Ref:1726046)

Well if they remove the marbles, theyre technically tampering with the car before making all the checks.

bosch! · 3 Oct 2006, 10:50 (Ref:1726200)

Adam, the BAR and fuel stuff is historical as I clearly stated. I dont however accept as you seem to that no other team had a case to answer. You say that all the other teams were fine, they were never checked in such detail so its impossible to prove one way or another.

If you are sugesting that I am implying that teams are still topping up to retain a legal weight then you need to withdraw that statement as I am not. If you are implying that no team ever did then the BAR exclusion lends a lie to that also, so what exactly are you saying?

I doubt that the marbles are fused to the tyre in the same way as the original rubber so it would be easy enough to remove them if the FIA sought fit to without materially altering the tyre. Yes collecting marbles is an accepted part of F1 but the FIA has lately (has always really) taken to redefining accepted "legal" practices - michelin tyre width ring a bell?

Other long time F1 watchers on this forum could probably give a list of 20 or 30 items that have been redefined into illegality at the stroke of a pen, maybe we should have a seperate thread on this?

FPV: Isnt removing fluids also tampering with the car in that case?

Funnily enough bernie and charlie had a jolly wheeze with Tyrell expansion tanks back in the day to bend weight restrictions did they not?

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2006, 11:07 (Ref:1726214)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosch!

If you are sugesting that I am implying that teams are still topping up to retain a legal weight then you need to withdraw that statement as I am not.

Withdrawn, I misunderstood the point of your first post then. Went and figured, but figured wrong.

Quote:

I doubt that the marbles are fused to the tyre in the same way as the original rubber so it would be easy enough to remove them if the FIA sought fit to without materially altering the tyre.

They will all be very hot and it will be difficult to do. Needlessy messy really. Unlike removing fluid, which is easily defined. My reasoning behind this is from a practical stand point. Who removes the crud on the tyres? How do you decide what is crud and what is part of the tyre. The cars ran round with some marbles which kept the weight up, which are added after the race and which were there on the last lap.

I like the idea of weighing each wheel after it was come off though. That is relatively easy to do.

Oh and yes there are many historic thigns to do with weight. Fluids, heavy wings, lead weight, etc...

FPV GTHO · 3 Oct 2006, 11:08 (Ref:1726218)

If the rules state weight must be measured dry, then its not.

If the FIA start removing all the marbles they may as well give them a thorough wash as who knows how much extra weight is accumulated through brake dust, water if its a wet race or who knows what else.

chillibowl · 3 Oct 2006, 15:40 (Ref:1726512)

the BMW situation this year was rather interesting, in that there must be times when every team is at some point under the allowable min. weight due to tire wear, but imo if they really wanted to adhear to that rule during the race itself (as opposed to just at the begining and the end) wouldnt we just end up with situations where any car who lost any piece of body work be automatically be DQ?

surley that would be a case of following the rules too closely.

duke_toaster · 3 Oct 2006, 19:17 (Ref:1726843)

What would be sensible (and it would make almost no practical difference) is lower the minimum weight the mass of 4 "complete wheels" and weigh them with no wheels fitted. Or would that be too sensible?

**Adam43** · 3 Oct 2006, 19:24 (Ref:1726850)

I guess the worry there is that the wheels become dangerously light. Although stringent rules on the manufacture of wheels solve that. I don't see this as an issue.

Yeah, why not?

Marbot · 3 Oct 2006, 19:58 (Ref:1726896)

Of course if you are far enough ahead of your rival you could always pit on your last lap,have a set of chunky wet weather tyres fitted,and then go across the finish line in the pitlane (not sure how it would work if you've already crossed the line to get to your pit box).

Or am I just talking ********?

bosch! · 3 Oct 2006, 23:35 (Ref:1727050)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I guess the worry there is that the wheels become dangerously light. Although stringent rules on the manufacture of wheels solve that. I don't see this as an issue.

Yeah, why not?

I agree, if we can have standard ECU's why not go for a standard wheel? It would also stop the debate about the ferrari shrouds. I imagine the the FIA could easily push it through as a safety measure.

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