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4 Jan 2004, 20:31 (Ref:827631) | #1 | |
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video of dp's testing. look sooooo slow
http://www.grandamerican.com/jan_test_videos.html
looks like the Porsches are running close to the dp's. Hope they look faster in person or Grand Am is going to sink fast. |
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4 Jan 2004, 22:10 (Ref:827699) | #2 | ||
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The Rolex series is growing not sinking.
Oh and the DP's are running 8 seconds a lap faster then the GT class- http://www.grandamerican.com/race_re...w_prac312.html |
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4 Jan 2004, 22:22 (Ref:827710) | #3 | ||
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Yep they are - because the GT cars have smaller restrictors than last year. Not sure how much power they are lacking over last year but it is a considerable ammount. Last year the GT class cars were lapping at 1:52.7 http://www.daytona24hr.com/Standings/pratice30th1.asp So far this year the best time is a 1.54.7 - as u can see its a big differnce. If the GT regs had been left the way that they were for this year Ive no doubt the cars would be doing 1:51's maybe even lower. For comparissan the fastest DP car to date has set 1:48.311. Now just imagine if full ACO GTS cars were racing - theyd wipe the floor with the DP's. Remember GA dosent want a repeat of last year with AJR winning, thats why they have less power and a even smaller fuel tank....
GA for my money is defintly sinking, it used to be a great series and now is just a shadow of its former self, a shame. GA needs to get some better management I think. Last edited by SALEEN S7R; 4 Jan 2004 at 22:24. |
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4 Jan 2004, 22:32 (Ref:827715) | #4 | ||
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G/A is a STRICTLY north American series with it's own set of rules. It has NOTHING to do with LeMans, the ELMS, or IMSA. Time comparisons are irrelevent.
I really don't care if cars turn 1:30 or 2:00 at Daytona; what I don't like about DSPs is their looks. |
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4 Jan 2004, 22:48 (Ref:827729) | #5 | ||
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If they are ugly, slow and dangerous, then the only advantage they have is that they are cheap?
Couldn't they just buy those Thunder Cars the guys race on the dirt oval at Barrie Speedway? Those are cheap, but they are not slow or dangerous and some are quite good looking..... |
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"If we won all the time, we'd be as unpopular as Ferrari, and we want to avoid that. We enjoy being a team that everybody likes." Flavio Briatore |
4 Jan 2004, 23:06 (Ref:827746) | #6 | ||
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How do you figure they are dangerous?
The cars are not particularly fast. They lack downforce and therefore grip. They do put out pretty high speeds on the banking (190 or so) but on the infield I am not suprised to see them out braked by a Porsche or Ferrari, they are about equal in braking and acceleration. The Porsches have twin 29.5mm restrictors, LMGTs have 30.5mm restrictors for the same weight car. The racing I saw at Mt. Tremblant was exciting, like em or hate them, even with only 25 or so cars on the track I saw action on every lap from the place I was standing...for 6hrs straight! They really do look better in person too, but the diehard haters of their looks would still probably at least dislike them... The cars sound very good, an unrestricted porsche engine is an evil sound. There has only been one "serious" accident and that was Dyson at the Glen. He was not injured so there is really no basis for the dangerous statement. |
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4 Jan 2004, 23:12 (Ref:827750) | #7 | |||
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Quote:
From the IMSA forum the fastest lap for the C5R at the Daytona test days is 1:48.128. So not only are the DP's beter looking, safer and a beter price... there also as fast. Or faster as the case is when comparing the DP's to S7R and the GTS-R Viper. Last edited by Patrick B; 4 Jan 2004 at 23:13. |
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4 Jan 2004, 23:39 (Ref:827777) | #8 | ||
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I think Grand Am's thinking of making some parts univerisal or spec might have gone far oto far. Yes, no one is going to go crazy if a few inside componets are spec and yes some poeple don't care what is on the inside of a car anyway, but that thinking has given them the abilty to think that fans are so dumb they don't care what any part of the car or the performance matters.
Do people care what the roof line looks like? YES!! The aero package? YES!!! Enough speed so they don't look like they are under caution? YES!!! But what do we know? Were just the general public. Mark Laughoff and Roger Edmenton have developed a formula that is 101% perfect and doesn't need to be changed for 10 years. I don't know but if some of the most loyal supporters of Grand Am (ie Jack Baldwin) say the cars need more power, and a major part of the fan base wants more speed, maybe...just maybe you might do something. Of course, this is from the same group that said they weren't interested in the typical sports car fan. Great PR. Make mad one potenial fan base right off the bat. You listen to some of the quotes of Roger Edmenton and you wonder why they don't put a muzzle on him? He either goes on and on about the GT40 or creates PR diasters by alienating one section of fans. Roger, perhaps a better quote would have been While we want to continue to appeal to our existing fan base, we would also like to reach new audiences. That might have been slightly better than essentially saying "watch something else, were not interested with what you think". |
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4 Jan 2004, 23:45 (Ref:827782) | #9 | |||
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Quote:
Remember - the Porsches were very close to the DP times last year - and GT class cars are LOTS slower than GTS machinery. A GTS car in ALMS/FIA GT trim would outpace a DP easy. One last thing - take a Saleen S7R for example and compare the Areodynamics to that of a DP car - I think u will find it is better areodynamically and has a lot more power in ALMS/FIA GT spec. DP cars are ugly and slow, sure they can beat Porsche 911 GT3 cars - just - if the Porsches run insanely large restrictors that is. Otherwise the Porsche would win easily - just like in 2003. Last edited by SALEEN S7R; 4 Jan 2004 at 23:48. |
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4 Jan 2004, 23:57 (Ref:827789) | #10 | |||
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Heres the Roger Edmonsons interview-
http://www.ashcom.homestead.com/Rogeredmondson.html Quote:
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5 Jan 2004, 00:02 (Ref:827794) | #11 | |
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huh?
Good lord, Grand Am guys act like its a life or death struggle here. My original post simply stated that from a visual standpoint, based on the video shot and approved by Grand Am, the DP's were certainly not overpowering the lesser classes. As someone who is used to ACO prototypes threading the slower needle in overcoming GT and GTS cars, this stood out like a sore thumb. They seemed to beracingthe GT and Cup cars, not just blowing by as in the past.
I have a friend who is a webmaster and he made a valid point to me today. The volume of press releases from Grand Am in the past couple of days has literally forced him to block the e-mail from them. Not that he minds posting legitimate news but the PR department at Nascar has gone crazy to try and raise awareness for the 24. But no attempt at Nascar cross-promotion has surfaced. No major promos airing on Fox or whoever concerning the Nextel Cup drivers that will be basically doing a favor to whomever. And from what I've read, this is just "fun" to them. I'm not sure I would want Tony Stewart taking my racecar out for "fun" when I wrote the check for the car. It may be just me but I have a funny feeling that with the Nextel drivers out to grandstand and have a good old time with each other, mixed with the traditional sportscar drivers who are very serious and have careers to think about, this years race could turn into a very, very bad situation for the teams that are serious about winning. In the big picture, the speed of the DP's has little to do with the success of the series. Its whether or not there is a fan base to support it that matters. So far there is not, but Nascar, France, or whoever you choose to say is calling the shots, there had better be soon. Let me say that again.....there had better be soon. The powers that be have given Grand Am very specific marching orders concerning expectations beginning with the 24. I honestly pray that it runs smoothly for the teams that take it seriously, but I have a very bad feeling about the potential for a fiasco with the high paid, spoiled rotten Nextel guys mixed in. I think that the ends will not justify the means when it is all over. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:03 (Ref:827796) | #12 | ||
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Read the date again Saleen S7R. That time is from 2002 not 2003.
If the DP's ran in the full ALMS series next year they would likly get a couple Overall podiums... Considering the only fast & reliable LMP next year will be the Champion R8. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:07 (Ref:827802) | #13 | ||
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Okay Patrick - sorry my mistake. But in 2003 if the GTS cars were running to the same technical regulations as 2002 they would be about 1.5 seconds faster than the 2002 time id guess. Thats what normally happens, either way the GTS cars would still have lapped faster than 2002 - by at least 5 tenths, up to 1.5 secs a lap faster therefore being faster than the DP cars anyway.
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5 Jan 2004, 00:08 (Ref:827803) | #14 | ||
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Independent, From your sig i know your Snap and Pop from the Speed forum so i know exactly what you intended by starting this tread.
Last edited by Patrick B; 5 Jan 2004 at 00:11. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:20 (Ref:827812) | #15 | ||
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Oh patrick, by the way just done a bit of digging and found that the best time for a GTS car in 2002 recorded a 1.46.704 - thats when ALMS/FIA GT regulations were in place. http://www.grand-am.com/events2002/t...ned_final.html Unlike now that is, in 2003 GA penalised the Saleen and other GTS class machinery and in 2004 banned it. But anyway as Ive said GTS cars running ALMS/FIA GT spec are faster than DP cars.
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5 Jan 2004, 00:25 (Ref:827818) | #16 | ||
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Yup he is, just as I suspected.
Once again, as has been beat down in the past, the idea isnt to reference them to cars they dont race against. Fact is, even with more restrictions the DPs are faster this year than last. Also, as for the Porsches, I didnt know that a mm difference was huge...silly me for being American I guess...just cant get that darn metric system down!! I do agree that maybe Roger isnt the worlds greatest speaker out there, if you really look at what he is saying instead of shutting him off the first time he makes you mad though it starts to make sense. As i said before, they are racing on the infield...just as I have seen a Prodrive ferrari outbrake a prototype before too...it happens...deal with it. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:28 (Ref:827822) | #17 | |
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He is a friend of mine but I don't necessarily share his views. I tend to be more open to new things. Whoever you are I don't know you but I feel that my points are valid. To suggest that DP's could "win a podium or two" is ludicrous and you know this. The 911 GT3 RSR is a completely different ball game than what is running in Grand Am this year. And even without the LMP1 class, I doubt a DP would run with Dyson or 575GTC Ferraris, let alone the many additions we will see in the next three months before the series begins a new season. To suggest that I am "starting something" when I simply stated a reasonable observation on the events of the last fews days is absurd.
Please refrain from personal attacks in the future and stick to the message, not the messenger. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:29 (Ref:827824) | #18 | ||
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Oh yeah, just as stated in the FIA SCC post, do we really want NASCAR popularity in our road racing series, just like no one wants F1 popularity.
I personally like being able to talk to drivers and get close enough to smell the cars after a run, I dont want to be locked behind a cage while various drunk fans threaten the driver they "hate" |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:35 (Ref:827831) | #19 | |||
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Quote:
As for Drunken fans threatening to kill drivers, that dosent happen here in Europe, well at least not GB. Other than NA$CAR im not sure it happens in any other series in the USA either. But then if u ask me NA$CAR isnt a real racing series. Its a circus, its WWE (World wrestling entertainment) re badged. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:42 (Ref:827835) | #20 | ||
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If your not Snappy then my bad. But starting a thread saying GA is sinking isn't helping your image...
In 2003 there where 5 DP's at the test. In 2004 there where 19 DP's at the test. Almost 400% growth in one year. Plus there are about 3 more confirmed cars on the way in the next couple months. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:51 (Ref:827841) | #21 | |||
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Sure Independants opening post didnt exactly do a lot to help the rift between GA/ALMS fans but to be fair, in comparissan to the ALMS he is correct. All he was doing was stating his opinion, sure might not have been the PC thing to say but its his opinion, he is correct u have attacked the poster and not the post, u have already admitted u thought he was someone who he may not be, so ur perception of him wasnt the same as of perhaps a member u dont know from other boards, and that made u defensive. This is why forums are here - so people can debate other points of view, there is no right or wrong, just that a majority thinks one thing, a minority thinks the other and id say that u Patrick and ur other GA friends are in the minority at this point in time. A bit like me with my view on the Spa 24hrs being the best Endurance sportscar race in the world, where as most people think LM is. |
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5 Jan 2004, 00:54 (Ref:827843) | #22 | ||
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Yeah i agree that NASCAR isnt real racing either, and that is the only place that that kind of junk happens, i just dont want to see it happen to my precious road racing either!!
As for DPs getting podiums...ive stated before that they would probably make excellent LM2 cars using the Porsche flat 6 or a Ferrari 360 engine, but a podium would be limited to that class byfar...although they could probably outlast an MG they would never come near their speed. |
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5 Jan 2004, 01:25 (Ref:827853) | #23 | ||
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I judge a series health buy the teams ability to field cars without going in debt and if the series is paying its bills.
GrandAm is looking strong to me. Lots of new teams coming to GA from other series. No reports of GA having money problems. The track's seem to want GA back, so they must be making money off Rolex events. The fan base might not be huge but huge crowds don't mean the series are stong. Just look at CART and the WRC. Both have huge fan base's but there both having problems paying bills and securing tracks and dates because of money problems... As far as my coment that DP's could get podiums in the ALMS i base it on lap times and reliablity. The DP's are faster then all the GT cars and as reliable. The DP's are about even with the GTS and LMP2 cars on lap times. The DP's are more reliable then the LMP2 cars. The DP's are way more reliable then the R&S LMP1's and the "MGs". So id expect the DP's would qualify around 10th at most ALMS event's. At the end of most race's the only "top" cars that run trouble free are the Champion R8 the C5R's and maybe one of the MG's. The C5R got at least 1 4th spot last year and with Joest gone the would have got 3rd. If the DP's are as fast(depends on the track) and reliable as the C5R's the DP's would be as possible for a DP to get that 3rd... If that makes any sense :-) Last edited by Patrick B; 5 Jan 2004 at 01:27. |
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5 Jan 2004, 02:43 (Ref:827882) | #24 | ||
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Quote:
The other thing is that I sense your genuine enthusiasm for Grand Am racing. This is admirable but I would suggest a sense of reality about it. DP's were designed to be slow by comparison, low tech by comparison, and performance limited by comparison to ACO series cars. And from what Mr. Edmonson has said, this will not change for a long time. The underlying reason for this series is close racing and inexpensive cars for privateers who cannot afford to compete at the ALMS level. All the wishing in the world will not change the reality of the performance of the DP's. I would hope that as a fan of Grand Am that you concentrate on the things that the DP's are capable of realizing like concentrated fields during a race, safe speeds, and the ability of less financed, less experienced drivers to realize their goal of competing in a series designed for them. You should perhaps direct your animosity towards Grand Am if the performance of DP's bothers you, or find a new series to enjoy. As far as I know, no ACO fan on this board is responsible for writing the rules for Grand Am nor the diminished returns on the Daytona test times. If you want them to go faster or compete with ALMS cars head to head, e-mail Mr. Edmunson with your thoughts. |
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5 Jan 2004, 02:50 (Ref:827886) | #25 | ||
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Im happy with the performance of the DP's. Nothing wrong with 1:48's around Daytona.
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