Rallycross - the big divide!

[HrRACING]

So, lets for instance say that some some reason you were only able to race in one Championship or series, e.g. MSA/BRDA, BTRDA, or RSS, which would it be? Why?

[Spunky Munky]

Would be the RSS!
No huge registration fee, and what you do pay is taken off your first entry fee, so its basically free. They dont seem so interested in taking your money, only in improving the sport.

[206180]

Originally Posted by Spunky Munky

Would be the RSS!
No huge registration fee, and what you do pay is taken off your first entry fee, so its basically free. They dont seem so interested in taking your money, only in improving the sport.

No huge registration fee for BRC. How does £25 off of £175 equal free!
The ERC

[Simon Ross]

I think the MSA should strip the BRDA of the British Championship title as the BRDA are taking the sport downwards. The events that they are running do not warrant British Championship status, more like grassroots Rallycross. Best thing is if they went bust and left the Super Series to take over. Also the BRDA have seemed to control the sport for long enough and have dont done nothing with it. Out with the old and lets get behind the new.

[206180]

Originally Posted by Simon Ross

I think the MSA should strip the BRDA of the British Championship title as the BRDA are taking the sport downwards. The events that they are running do not warrant British Championship status, more like grassroots Rallycross. Best thing is if they went bust and left the Super Series to take over. Also the BRDA have seemed to control the sport for long enough and have dont done nothing with it. Out with the old and lets get behind the new.

So who is going to run the BRC, an organisation that had to cancel an event at Knockhill because it could not afford to run it. Lets have all the BRC rounds at Blyton shall we ?
You seem to base your statement on the entries at Knockhill (from your previous posts!) which is not very representative of all the BRC entries.

[silver bullet]

Both the Brda and RPL are suffering because some people are more interested in is pulling the other side down than working together. These people either need to build bridges or step out of the way, and let the people who will co-operate work together.
Most of the drivers are trying to support both promotions as much as they can, so come on organisers do likewise.
I read in MN all partys are going to work together, I don't see much evidence!

Now to the question who will I support? I will do as many events as I can afford and fit in, whoever is promoting them. The fixture clogged calendar in july and early August will not help. I see more poor entrys due to broken cars and shortage of funds.

Both RPL and the BRDA are going to have meetings with good entrys and some with poor entrys, more to do with where and when the meetings are held, than who is running them.

[B Friendly]

Like some drivers that I have spoken to, a majority of them will support rallycross as a whole, not just separate organisations. Whenever I read threads on the rallying/rallycross forum after events run by the BRDA and RPL there always seem to have been 'slagging' off at some point regarding how the event was run ,entry lists and other things. This 'slagging' goes as far back as a few years and it seems that some people have taken things more seriously as regards to opinions, even going as far as banning of people.

With regards to the 'Think Big, Act Big, Be Big' or whatever it says on the super series website (can't remember the exact wording!), in my opinion the only way rallycross is going to be big is if BRDA and RPL start getting their heads together, start bouncing ideas off each other and succeed as one, then we might stand a better chance of getting a european round over here.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

Both the Brda and RPL are suffering because some people are more interested in is pulling the other side down than working together. These people either need to build bridges or step out of the way, and let the people who will co-operate work together.
.................................................................................................... ....
Both RPL and the BRDA are going to have meetings with good entrys and some with poor entrys, more to do with where and when the meetings are held, than who is running them.

Agree wholeheartedly.

This is not unique to Rallycross, it happens in Motorsport in general. There used to be two national F3 Championships F'rinstance.

Working together for the good of the sport instead of picking up the ball and going home will no doubt result in better grids and better events.

So support both when you can but not to the detriment of either.

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Agree wholeheartedly.

This is not unique to Rallycross, it happens in Motorsport in general. There used to be two national F3 Championships F'rinstance.

Working together for the good of the sport instead of picking up the ball and going home will no doubt result in better grids and better events.

So support both when you can but not to the detriment of either.

I think at the end of the day people are always going to choose one over the other, we all have our favorite car manufactuers, soft drink makers, pc manufactuers and electronics etc...

I do think creating a bit more competition in the Motorsport Market especially in the area of rallycross will encourage both championships to try win drivers. How they do that is a matter for themselfs and whatever business pratice they see fit to use.

Another thing to point out is that once again the RSS is not a championship, it is a Series. I am unable to tell you the differences between the two as i dont know in my own mind what essentially is classified as a championship and then a series.

You are compairing two different standards of organisations so it is always going to be harder to argue a good for or against motion for each championship as they both have their pro's and con's.

Just my two cents

/move along nothing to see here!

[DarrenG]

Surely there are two many championships chasing not enough drivers? If the BRDA and BTRDA events were not run together then I don't think they would have enough entries to even cover costs.

You only need to look at the entry lists to realise just how many drivers are not bothering to race this year. I don't want to go into the whole Xenogamy situation again but surely this proved that rallycross needs to appeal to the clubman racer rather than the Supercar / top few Supermodified drivers.

If the BRDA don't try and pursuade these drivers to come back then I can't see much future for them.

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by DarrenG

Surely there are two many championships chasing not enough drivers? If the BRDA and BTRDA events were not run together then I don't think they would have enough entries to even cover costs.

You only need to look at the entry lists to realise just how many drivers are not bothering to race this year. I don't want to go into the whole Xenogamy situation again but surely this proved that rallycross needs to appeal to the clubman racer rather than the Supercar / top few Supermodified drivers.

If the BRDA don't try and pursuade these drivers to come back then I can't see much future for them.

The BRDA needs a 3 year plan to get the championship modernised and onto par with other championships, in some respects my own championship is progressing away from using all the rules that the brda use.

We have seen more drivers, more cars and higher spec machinery come into our championship over the past 3 years, and i can see alot more machinery comming into our championship.

From a competitors point of view i would prefere to compete in events with alot of entrys (and if any of you plan on doing to rallysprinting id reccomend comming over in december on stephens day for some proper 210 entry rallysprinting!).

[sihorton]

Just to add my bit..

I think the BRDA need to address the fact that the BTRDA stockhatch championship is more appealing to that class of drivers than the BRDA stockhatch class. Take knockhill, there was at least double the quantity of BTRDA stockhatch competitors compaired to the BRDA class. Surely it should be the as appealing as each other or more in the way of the BRDA championship?

The RPL seems to be sat in the middle with there entry fee (less than BRDA and more than BTRDA).

I also agree with silverbullet, i don't really have a preferance to which championship i follow, it's more a case of location and budget. Both organisations seem to have put on good events so far this year as far as i'm concerned.

si

[RoyG]

Originally Posted by rxie

I do think creating a bit more competition in the Motorsport Market especially in the area of rallycross will encourage both championships to try win drivers. How they do that is a matter for themselfs and whatever business pratice they see fit to use.

Competition is all well and good in a buoyant market, but when the market is a very restricted one (like Rallycross) there's a danger that no outfit succeeds and the market disappears completely.

Originally Posted by rxie

Another thing to point out is that once again the RSS is not a championship, it is a Series. I am unable to tell you the differences between the two as i dont know in my own mind what essentially is classified as a championship and then a series.

The MSA will only sanction a championship which is organised by a proven organisation, which is why RPL run a "series" (i.e. no totting up of points). I would guess that next year they would be aiming to run a championship. The MDA, as an established organiser, were given the OK to run the Clubmans' Championship.

Originally Posted by BFriendly

In my opinion the only way rallycross is going to be big is if BRDA and RPL start getting their heads together, start bouncing ideas off each other and succeed as one, then we might stand a better chance of getting a european round over here.

Couldn't agree more. If the enthusiasm and fresh ideas of RPL could work with the experience of BRDA as well as MDA, there's no reason why Rallycross in UK couldn't reach or even exceed previous heights.
Thank goodness that both outfits took a long, hard reality check at the beginning of the year, tempered some of their more extreme ideas and at least managed to put on some viable, if not very exciting meetings. Together they could really get things going again.

Originally Posted by 206180

Lets have all the BRC rounds at Blyton shall we ?

Do any European Rallycross meetings run at established Race Circuits? My (admittedly limited) experience of European circuits is that they are more similar to Blyton than Brands Hatch, but this doesn't prevent them holding very attractive meetings for both competitors and spectators. A significant part of recent problems in UK has been the cost of circuit hire, due to the fact that the established race circuits can make a much bigger profit, with much less hassle, by running track days instead of Rallycross. Maybe the development of Off-Road venues like Blyton or Wildtracks (or Valkensvaard or Essais) could be the way of the future??

Originally Posted by sihorton

I think the BRDA need to address the fact that the BTRDA stockhatch championship is more appealing to that class of drivers than the BRDA stockhatch class. Take knockhill, there was at least double the quantity of BTRDA stockhatch competitors compaired to the BRDA class. Surely it should be the as appealing as each other or more in the way of the BRDA championship?

Agreed. The discussion shouldn't begin and end with arguments about "British Championships" & "Super Series" etc. Rallycross will not thrive at any level unless there is an affordable and attractive way into the sport. Whether this happens at meetings separate from the "top" meetings or part of them can be argued. But whatever - the "Clubmen" are essential cogs - without them the whole machine goes KAPUT!

Excuse the long rant - haven't posted for a while, so making up for lost time!

RoyG

P.S. Good luck to ALL competitors at ALL meetings - remember, the aim is to enjoy the racing! Hope Blyton goes well, I'll be pedalling my little Nova round East Anglia on the Midsummer Endurance rally on the 18th/19th.

[Pug620]

Si

I think the problem with the BRDA against BTRDA entry's is two reasons.

1 Cost £50 is a lot of money for me and justifying it the the wife?

2 In the BRDA if you dont have £4-8k to spend on a car what chance have you of even getting placed as the big money boys are always winning (over 20 seconds diference between 1st and 3rd the rest were right behind me)

Referance the second point why dont the orginsers use the ballast rule like they do in the 750 stockhatch racing so if you win a race you get 5kg ballast then you have to race two races without a win then its taken away stops the same people winning all the time by slowing then down (they could have 160kg add to the car if they won every time)

Also they should bring in min weights for cars so that you could use other cars that are not fast enough currently which would bring in some of the newer cars (if you dont have a 205 or 106/saxo then you will struggle to win)

Regards

Marty

[sihorton]

Originally Posted by hawkesfire

1 Cost £50 is a lot of money for me and justifying it the the wife?

Couldn't agree more. thats why I only race in the BTRDA. You don't seem to get anything more for your money if you do race in the BRDA, except maybe 30 second on TV if your lucky, so save your money and have the same fun.

Originally Posted by hawkesfire

2 In the BRDA if you dont have £4-8k to spend on a car what chance have you of even getting placed as the big money boys are always winning (over 20 seconds diference between 1st and 3rd the rest were right behind me)

Again, fully agree with you there marty. Stockhatch shouldn't really become chequebook racing, thats what mod's and supers are for.

Originally Posted by hawkesfire

(if you dont have a 205 or 106/saxo then you will struggle to win)

You know me, just a little crazy and i'm going to drive the wheels of my little metro till i get a win in it
But seriously, the saxo / 106 is certainly becoming the winning formula for the class.

si

[M.Lowe]

Just ask yourselves this
Why do you think that the RPL set up on its own?

(A) to provide a service and a series to rallycross boys at a fairly reasonable price because they couldn't afford to contest the BRDA championship, or (B) because they where bored and thought it a good laugh to have a bash at a rival championship?

Why do you think that the RPL/RSS is starting to gather more interest when the BRDA is losing other classes ie minicross?

I do see that not all events are going to get full entries but it says something when the winner of last years stock hatch championship makes a comment to Arthur Debenham when asked what he thought the differences between the two of them where when he said he thought the BRDA where just in it for the money whereas the RPL where in it for the sport.

I have read here that entry costs did go up for the Croft event but surely it was done for a reason?

My only gripe at Rallycross as a whole is that the former Group B cars are not allowed but the silliest thing I heard from a guy at Autosport on the BRDA stand was, you can have a new shape shell over a 6R4 engine and transmission as they want to see newer shapes but how can ya have that when they want to attract European regulated cars here?

I feel the way to go for Rallycross in Britain is allow ALL classes like they do in France as their championship works and is healthy

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by M.Lowe

Just ask yourselves this
Why do you think that the RPL set up on its own?

(A) to provide a service and a series to rallycross boys at a fairly reasonable price because they couldn't afford to contest the BRDA championship, or (B) because they where bored and thought it a good laugh to have a bash at a rival championship?

Not trying to have a dig but I if memory serves me correct it would be
(C) RPL tried to attract the Super Cars, Modified and euro spec cars only and then realised that they couldn't make the running of a event viable without stockhatch or minicross and preformed a massive u-turn.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by M.Lowe

Why do you think that the RPL/RSS is starting to gather more interest when the BRDA is losing other classes ie minicross?

I'm fairly sure the BRDA didn't 'lose' minicross - wasn't it dropped by the BRDA as part of the whol Xenogamy incident? (a big mistake - I really don't understand the reasons behind that move)

Also the RSS wasn't keen on having minicross or stock hatch initially ("quality not quantity") but the minicrossers were looking for a home and the stock hatch horde provide a useful boost to the entry numbers (and some quality racing )

Originally Posted by M.Lowe

My only gripe at Rallycross as a whole is that the former Group B cars are not allowed

Group B cars can still compete - Lawrence Gibson is still campaigning the 6R4 and there are plenty more in the Irish championship (come on rxie - names please ). The RSS doesn't allow Group B which is a shame as the cars are superb and will always be popular with spectators and sponsors.


Rallycross is a fantastic sport, that we all agree on. However, as others have rightly said it isn't big enough to survive a prolonged period of instability and infighting. All sides involved need to get together and work out how to take the sport forward - unless something changes the whole thing could collapse - and that would be a terrible waste.

[Nittymaki]

Let me just correct a few things please...
The RSS was ALWAYS allowing the minicross and stockhatch racers in their series. We were going to be part of the RSS Plate with 12 cars from each class at each round this was announced shortly after the GP last year. This package was then improved when the BRDA dropped minicross and made it clear the older stockhatch cars were not part of the new MSA package.
Personally I think the RSS lads should be congratulated for allowing us stockhatch and minicorss drivers to be part of their package.
Yes they realised they needed the numbers but not financially but for the fact the clubman have a strong place in rallycross in this country.

I also would like to add that I think the RSS is doing well lets not forget everyone that it is there 1st year of a 3 year package and other organisations have been doing it for years and look at how things are with them..... A BRC that can't stand alone in its own right, declining numbers and poor driving standards.

I actually think as many other people do that the RSS is actually at the right level for its first year in operation it is the BRDA/BRC which is letting the sport down by trying to have a BRC which is quite clearly not up to sctratch.

I also would like to add on the point all "parties working together", there have been 4 meetings now between MSA representatives, RSS, MDA and BRDA reps. The have set up the British Rallycross Working Group to move the sport in the right direction. However the RSS has its right to have stand alone events and is succeeding, the Brda should be there running the BRC and the MDA for the clubmans side, there is room for all.
The above is not helped though when it is the BRDA that don't bother to turn up to the last meeting, how does this help!!??

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Nittymaki

Let me just correct a few things please...
The RSS was ALWAYS allowing the minicross and stockhatch racers in their series. We were going to be part of the RSS Plate with 12 cars from each class at each round this was announced shortly after the GP last year. This package was then improved when the BRDA dropped minicross and made it clear the older stockhatch cars were not part of the new MSA package.

If that's the case then I must have got the wrong end of the stick at some point, from the various super series threads that we've had on here the initial view was that the stockhatchers could compete in the RSS in division 2. Then came the plate with 12 stockhatch cars at each event and then finally the current allcomers for stockhatch (the initial impression given by the RSS was that they didn't want the older cars - they didn't fit the image). Whatever the history the final result is the same - they've found somewhere to race.

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by Nittymaki

Let me just correct a few things please...
The RSS was ALWAYS allowing the minicross and stockhatch racers in their series. We were going to be part of the RSS Plate with 12 cars from each class at each round this was announced shortly after the GP last year. This package was then improved when the BRDA dropped minicross and made it clear the older stockhatch cars were not part of the new MSA package.
Personally I think the RSS lads should be congratulated for allowing us stockhatch and minicorss drivers to be part of their package.

I think that you can spin things any way you want Nitty but to my memory it was only junior (idol) minicross that was proposed at the start. It was made clear to me on several occasions by a member of RPL that the "banged up old 205 brigade" were not wanted or needed to run there events. It seems to me that the stock hatch plate only came into being because it was realised that even the more modern saxo vtr's were never homlogated and could not run in Div 1a even if they wanted to.

Also when was it made clear that that older stockhatch cars were not part of the new MSA package?

Originally Posted by Nittymaki

Yes they realised they needed the numbers but not financially but for the fact the clubman have a strong place in rallycross in this country.

They didn't need the numbers financially? Numbers is the only thing that keeps an event viable. If they had of got the numbers required of euro spec cars do you think they would be catering to clubmen now?
Don't get me wrong I think that if they want to have full euro spec rules as their target, then I wish them every luck. But to say that they wanted the clubman competitor from the start to me seems a bit disingenuous.

[winnie]

The only way the RSS and BRDA could work together is if one ran the clubmans championship and the other ran the BRC. They both want the BRC so it's not going to happen.
English Rallycross is in a mess, and you have to point the finger at the BRDA for causing it. The BRDA has nothing to do with the drivers but everythng to do wirh a few individuals that have tried to exploit the sport for there own benefit and the sport has suffered. Any organisation that dumps AD does not deserve to run Rallycross. AD is the voice of rallycross, the bridge between the organisers, the competitor and the public. He knows more about rallycross than any individual on the BRDA commitee (who ever they are). Then we had the balls up with Xenography (?), which was a disgrace. The BRDA have had their chance and they blew it.
Let the RSS have a go. I agree they are here to eventually make a profit, which i don't mind, as long as the paying competitor does not suffer and Rallycross 'grows'.
The RSS directors are very open and it is obvious that they are working hard to put a decent package together, so i think they should be given a chance. I believe there are still a few issues to sort, for the Brirish Championship to work.
1. The RSS need to race at Lydden. This is a must, as the meetings are always well supported and the 'southerners' get a local meeting.
2. They need TV if the want to run the BRC.
3. Entry fees need to be kept around £150.

It would be nice if the BRDA could work with the RSS and improve rallycross, but it ain't going to happen.

[Cryos]

It seems to me that the stock hatch plate only came into being because it was realised that even the more modern saxo vtr's were never homlogated and could not run in Div 1a even if they wanted to.

En-contrer (spelling?) saxo vtr homologation runs out next year mon suir (S16 run out 2 years thereafter me thinks). It is 106 Homologation that has run out this year as the saxo ran on production longer than the 106.

They didn't need the numbers financially? Numbers is the only thing that keeps an event viable. If they had of got the numbers required of euro spec cars do you think they would be catering to clubmen now?

In fairness you, knor i or even nittys spins could acctually tell what they would do if they had more euro spec machinery, it could go anyway so i would think that there is no accurate way to argue that point.

English Rallycross is in a mess, and you have to point the finger at the BRDA for causing it. The BRDA has nothing to do with the drivers but everythng to do wirh a few individuals that have tried to exploit the sport for there own benefit and the sport has suffered. Any organisation that dumps AD does not deserve to run Rallycross

To a certain extent i would agree to you, altho i would make the point that alot of championships are like that anyway you will have the few select drivers that will have say and the rest will be pindrops in the vast orchestra that is rallycross politics. The BRDA is the Incombant organasation in this game, they have the most power they might have some form of corruption or biasisms. But if drivers did feel so strongly that the organisation that run their rallycross events was not doing stuff in the best interest in the sport then i would tell them to write and complain to the MSA.

By the people, for the people and because of the people.

All else fails, start your own lobby group.

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by rxie

En-contrer (spelling?) saxo vtr homologation runs out next year mon suir (S16 run out 2 years thereafter me thinks). It is 106 Homologation that has run out this year as the saxo ran on production longer than the 106.

Rixe saxo vts 16v was homologated, saxo vtr 8v was never homologated. Tried to get papers before from FIA.

[Cryos]

You sure ? because Citroen ran a VTR championship champ a while back... ?