Reflecting on the first hybrid era

[isynge]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course, these phenomenal cars are now obsolescent because of the new rules for next year. The sprint spec Audi R18 e-tron quattros and Toyota TS030s are probably going to be mothballed at Inglostadt and Cologne, with the LM cars coming out occasionally to do demo runs at things like the Goodwood Festival of Speed or other events that Audi and Toyota/TMG will put on. Or in the case of Audi, the LM winning R18s will be on exhibit at the Museum Mobile in Inglostadt.

It's an end of an era. Hopefully the new cars will be just as interesting to watch and see develop and race.

This post on Bahrain, from Chernaudi, raises an interesting point.

How will we look back on the last couple of years and the regulatory environment that gave us the R18 and TS-030? Will it be as a brief but brilliant period that at times had a pair of very well matched contenders truly going head to toe, or as a brief couple of years that ushered in something different?

For me the real highlights were at Silverstone in 2012 and 13. First thinking "wow, the Toyota's really quick - we might have a genuine contender here" in 2012, and then in 2013 feeling that Audi had so dramatically raised their game in a way that was both hugely impressive and a little bit disappointing.

Most history written right after the event is distorted, wrong, and only of value as historiographical context rather than a contribution to record, but right now I think feelings of some good if not quite great racing, a mild disappointment that Toyota took quite so long to get going in 2013, and an LMP1 grid that was a lot smaller than it should have been are the big threads to pick up on.

What do we collectively feel? A short classic era like 1969-71? A forgotten interregnum like the mid-1970s, or promise unfulfilled like 1991/92? Indeed do we have other historical analogues we can use?

Any thoughts to keep us going through the off season?

[Beetle]

Interesting point you bring up here, Ian.

Obviously we would have liked to see a somewhat closer finish to the season between Audi and Toyota. The latter took a while to get going, as you said, so it was essentially all said and done before Toyota took their first victory in Fuji. And even that wasn't all so nice -- that dastardly Japanese weather which all but ruined the race also dampened the spirits of Toyota and everyone there knew that the results could have been far different if the race had run the full six hours under favorable conditions.

I think one could argue that the 2013 season was, at least in the way of LMP1, slightly uninspiring. There was that very worrisome period just before Interlagos where two cars dropped out, and we figured that there could be even more as the season progressed. Luckily, Toyota decided to bring both cars to the final three rounds, so it didn't end up being as bad as one could have expected. 2012 was a year of celebration and anticipation for the future wars between Audi and Toyota, but unfortunately that didn't quite come to fruition until the championship was all but wrapped up. Ultimately, labeling 2013 as an anticlimax would be a reasonable conjecture.

I hope for better in 2014. Perhaps Toyota can step up their game a bit and we all know Porsche will be quick. They took the fight to Audi in LMP2 cars back in the ALMS's glory days. Expect great things from them in the near future.

As far as the era? To me it's ushered in largely an air of heightening professionalism and factory backing, which is always good. On the flip side, there's been a sterilization of the cars which hasn't been favored overall and it seems like, despite the advancements in racing technology, the cars have been tamed to 200 MPH tops. Racing is dangerous, everyone knows that when they get in the car to do their stint, so I don't think it's brash to say that cars should be hitting higher speeds. Professionalism and safety... good. Sterilization and choking... bad.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Beetle

As far as the era? To me it's ushered in largely an air of heightening professionalism and factory backing, which is always good. On the flip side, there's been a sterilization of the cars which hasn't been favored overall and it seems like, despite the advancements in racing technology, the cars have been tamed to 200 MPH tops. Racing is dangerous, everyone knows that when they get in the car to do their stint, so I don't think it's brash to say that cars should be hitting higher speeds. Professionalism and safety... good. Sterilization and choking... bad.

This I like in terms of thinking. One of my fondest memories is standing on the banking on the inside of Tertre Rouge and watching particularly for some reason the Audi R15s blasting off down along the straight and heading towards the boundaries of infinity - cars that can't approach the heady incomprehensible top ends won't, for me, appeal quite so much.

This might be more apposite for your generation Beck, but if in 20 or 30 years time you hear that it's going to be cars from 2012/13 that will be in the Saturday morning support race are you going to think "brilliant" or "meh"?

[Gingers4Justice]

I think we'll remember these cars as very significant, but I'm not quite so sure the racing will live long in the memory. The Peugeot-Audi battles were just awesome and next year we're throwing another manufacturer in to the mix. I think this little era will be sandwiched between two time periods which will come up a little better in this department.

I agree with you about Audi raising the game. And Toyota too. There are plenty of eras in sportscars remembered more for the machinery than the actual racing, going way back to when Alfa completely changed the game at Le Mans with the low-slung, futuristic 8C in the '30s.

Le Mans 2013, too, will be very significant. We'll talk about that one for years. It's just one of those years you'll instantly think about...like 2001, 1995, 1988, 1968 and so on. The brilliant race up front between two very different machines will be part of that story.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by isynge

This I like in terms of thinking. One of my fondest memories is standing on the banking on the inside of Tertre Rouge and watching particularly for some reason the Audi R15s blasting off down along the straight and heading towards the boundaries of infinity - cars that can't approach the heady incomprehensible top ends won't, for me, appeal quite so much.

I agree with this point too. The cornering speeds are awesome. I'll never forget taking my friend to T23 in qualifying on Wednesday night this year, who had never seen a racing car this year, be struck with awe at the speed the LMP1 cars carried through the Ford Chicane. In that sort of section of track, with headlights ablaze, I'm not sure there are any more spectacular cars in modern motorsport...

This might be more apposite for your generation Beck, but if in 20 or 30 years time you hear that it's going to be cars from 2012/13 that will be in the Saturday morning support race are you going to think "brilliant" or "meh"?

Unmistakably, I'll think these cars will be brilliant. I've never really been a fan of the diesels, but as soon as I'd hear the woosh of the R18, I know the memories from these past few years will come flooding back.

[Simmi]

I've spent much of this era essentially longing for the next season to arrive.

In 2012 Toyota stepped up late and impressed. I couldn't wait for a reliable sustained challenge to Audi at Le Mans a year later.
In 2013 Toyota were still on the back foot and I think Audi turned up the wick the previous winter. From then it was a case of roll on 2014.

That's not to say the racing has been bad in these years. Far from it. There's been plenty of intrigue, particularly in the post-LM events. The questions over whether underdog Toyota could win kept my attention despite the title being sewn up.

I still don't really view the WEC in terms of championship standings. I watch it more on a race-by-race basis to see who comes out on top. That might change next year if there is a sustained six-car P1 fight from the off.

This was the period for me where Le Mans became solidified as the first thing on my to-do list each year. So for that it will be special - and as John-Mark said these are certainly stunning cars to watch live.

So for me it was it was an era which didn't quite set the world alight. But showed plenty of intrigue and was hopefully an entertaining stopgap ahead of what's to come.

Between Audi and Toyota we often saw passing in the pits. I figure with three types of car running in 2014 there has to be enough cross-over to get that on-track action to add to the strategic finery.

[Mike E]

Good topic!

There are a few things which should be remembered.

The birth (re-birth?) of a world championship centred on Le Mans.

The first hybrid win at LM. The first of many, surely, since this appears to be the future. A more extreme vision of that future being next year's garage 56 entry.

Early, stumbling attempts to engage with a far wider audience through free web broadcasts of endurance races, shown in their entirety. It's not a sport for everyone but at least everyone (with a reasonable web connection) can work that out for themselves now.

Variety is at the heart of the appeal of sportscar racing for many people, so having a systematic way of ensuring all sorts of drivers can participate through the grading system is an interesting innovation. I must admit that I don't know when this system was introduced but it has allowed young up-and-comers to rub shoulders with seasoned pros, F1 refugees and well-heeled gentlemen.

An interesting period, even if the racing at the front wasn't always what we hoped it would be.

[JoestForEver]

Thanks to its road relevance, sportscar is becoming a better field for works team, which is essential if they want to revive the Group C grid number. To keep Audi in, they allowed diesel. To invite Toyota in, they introduced ''hybrid''. But I'm afraid that FIA copies what they have been doing in the WTCC. (i.e allowing Diesel 2000 first, then excluding all engine but 1.6T, forcing Seat and BMW away, then squeezing more power, expelling privateers, restricting themselves to F1 standard circuits and finally the series die.
When they are tired of diesel vs petrol quarrel, they will try to get rid of it, as long as they have petrol works backing

[TF110]

I think the diesel debate will always be there. If it were only as easy to burn more fuel to go faster for all the teams. I also think it will be looked at as a dismal period for entries of smaller teams. Imo, the new rules will be a total hit or a complete miss next year. That will cement this hybrid period as memorable for good or bad.

[JacobP]

In my humble opinion, diesel does not belong in sports car racing. Sports car racing has always been about road relevance this respect to _sports cars_ not sedans and hatches. The GT racing is supposed to be production-based with a various degrees of modifications, and the prototypes are called such because they still prototype the road going sports cars in some "abstract sense": two seats, closed wheels, etc. Now think, how many road going sports cars are diesel engines? Once you exclude sedan-based coupes, like BMW 2 and 4-series, not many at all. We don't see many diesel Ferraris and Porsches 911s out there. This is why I say racing diesels is not the spirit of sports car racing. If diesels made sense as a sports car engine, then we should have seen a lot of road-going sports cars, heck, even supercars with diesel engines. They don't exist. Why? They don't make sense? So why are diesels racing in the most prestigious class of sports car racing? Rules I guess.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by JacobP

In my humble opinion, diesel does not belong in sports car racing. Sports car racing has always been about road relevance this respect to _sports cars_ not sedans and hatches. The GT racing is supposed to be production-based with a various degrees of modifications, and the prototypes are called such because they still prototype the road going sports cars in some "abstract sense": two seats, closed wheels, etc. Now think, how many road going sports cars are diesel engines? Once you exclude sedan-based coupes, like BMW 2 and 4-series, not many at all. We don't see many diesel Ferraris and Porsches 911s out there. This is why I say racing diesels is not the spirit of sports car racing. If diesels made sense as a sports car engine, then we should have seen a lot of road-going sports cars, heck, even supercars with diesel engines. They don't exist. Why? They don't make sense? So why are diesels racing in the most prestigious class of sports car racing? Rules I guess.

IMO they're 3 main reasons for diesels not being used in exotic supercars
1.Sound is extreamly important in such a car and well,no one wants their porsche or ferrari to sound like a lorry,clattering away at traffic lights
2.Power-to-Weight Diesels are absolutely terrible when it comes to it (and the rules at le mans cover this problem very well) And straight line performance in the only thing the 50+ year olds of the world can experience when they buy their supercar
3.The biggest advantage of diesels (and IMO the only one) is Fuel economy.And in the world of super cars that is not very important.
They're other issues as well,like the fact that is going to 100% forced induction,it is very low revving(on of the joys of high performance petrol engines is high redline),and also a street legal diesel car to have over 400+ hp will be much more expensive than a equivalent petrol one

[Aysedasi]

Interesting topic, but I think we've rather strayed from 2012/13 and hybrids into already much-discussed diesel territory......

[JoestForEver]

Oh my god, not again. Probably I should never have raised the topic of diesel in this thread. Apologize for ruining a great thread (to be, at least).
---------------------------------------------------
With all respect, such conservative and obsession of 'old style' popular around fans about technology in motorsport is exactly the murderer of this sport.
Most people used to attack AWD and sang for the joy of RWD, but Audi, Porsche, Nissan,and many rally manufacturer now even Mercedes AMG and Beemer are initializing AWD system. Twenty years ago few 'supercars' would even bother to consider AWD, however with the stunning performance of GTR, R8, 911, Lambos, incoming NSX, now what? Time changes as always, and we should too.
As long as it's efficient, road relevant, and fast, it can be used in sportscar. What's the sin of diesel that makes it so hard to be accepted? On one hand, there are always people babbles about the intrinsic advantage of diesel, but on the other hand, they just cry and never work hard. May I call this as ill a stereotype as racism? Speaking of diesel, is V12 TDI Q7 not a fast car or M550d xdrive not a proper 'sportscar'? Sure enough ten years later there will be diesel supercar, probably Peugeot, but most likely from VW Group
---------------------------------------------------
Deeply sorry to say all this above, and pardon me because I'm bit of out of control of my mood.
[Edit: Please guys, don't run away from the topic: Hybrid, just let go of the stinky old topic.]

[Aysedasi]

OK. Now it really is a case of read the title again before you post, people.....

[cokata]

I apologize,for fueling the off topic conversation
Now on topic.I think that this short era will be remembered,mostly with positive things about the hybrid prototypes,the rules that were set were good enough IMO unlike F1's KERS.the lack of more factory teams did ultimately not allow for to see even more different and creative solutions.The other thing is that generally unless you are a hardcore fan,you will most likely have no knowledge about what are the rules and what have toyota and audi done.outside of radio lemans no one really educates the viewers about that,and this has been a general problem for the sport in general.again i will bring F1 where everybody and their dog even if they are a casual viewer has a good understanding about DRS and KERS,because it is covered to death by everyone.all in all i consider the Gen1 hybrids a reasonable success

[JoestForEver]

Agreed,just as the Speedsource boss developing future Mazda LMP2 for ALMS(USCC) said, we need more campaign to tell others this is not only a hardcore fans' business but it's relevant to everyday road car, though the first Gen hybrid prototypes are actually borrowing the ERS system from F1 IMO.

The R18 bought the flywheel system from Williams after their air hybrid banned (Peugeot is, in fact, developing similar air hybrid on road cars). Meanwhile, the super capacitor ERS on TS030 is actually the dominant form in F1, apart from Williams' flywheel. Pity that Williams moved to super capacitor as well.

2014, however, might be different with Porsche building their in-house ones. We can expect factory engineers improvising various new technologies as well as exploiting the most out of incumbent super capacitor and hopefully no more discouraging bans again.

[chernaudi]

Audi had the flywheel system before the FIA legislated the "air hybrid" system to the point where Audi gave up on it for '13. Audi had been running the flywheel system since they started testing the e-tron quattro in late 2011.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Agreed,just as the Speedsource boss developing future Mazda LMP2 for ALMS(USCC) said, we need more campaign to tell others this is not only a hardcore fans' business but it's relevant to everyday road car, though the first Gen hybrid prototypes are actually borrowing the ERS system from F1 IMO.

The R18 bought the flywheel system from Williams after their air hybrid banned (Peugeot is, in fact, developing similar air hybrid on road cars). Meanwhile, the super capacitor ERS on TS030 is actually the dominant form in F1, apart from Williams' flywheel. Pity that Williams moved to super capacitor as well.

2014, however, might be different with Porsche building their in-house ones. We can expect factory engineers improvising various new technologies as well as exploiting the most out of incumbent super capacitor and hopefully no more discouraging bans again.

F1 does not use capacitors. Only Toyota uses it in major motorsports. They won the Tokachi 24 hour race with a capacitor back in 2007 with the Supra hv-r. The one in the ts030 is an evolution of that. I doubt any other team will use one. Peugeot was going to use batteries in their hybrid-4.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by TF110

F1 does not use capacitors. Only Toyota uses it in major motorsports. They won the Tokachi 24 hour race with a capacitor back in 2007 with the Supra hv-r. The one in the ts030 is an evolution of that. I doubt any other team will use one. Peugeot was going to use batteries in their hybrid-4.

Obviously I'm wrong again. But surely toyota isn't the only one using super capacitor. Sauber attempted this approach but gave up after accidents. Renault seems to have adopted supercapacitor as well, at least in Formula Renault as onboard storage. Red Bull, maybe. http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2012/04/17...er-capacitors/