Petrol Car Ban By 2040..Good Bye F1?

[Armco Bender]

Petrol car ban by 2040......https://www.ft.com/content/7e61d3ae-...f-99f383b09ff9

Looks like the end is nigh for F1 as we know it...better start getting excited about the prospect of Formula E taking over as the pinnacle of motorsport..

[ScotsBrutesFan]

The statement bans the sale of new cars with ICEs, F1 cars aren't sold when new. Besides F1 is already planning its next evolution, there will probably be another couple of evolutions before 2040

[chillibowl]

following some of the EU stories but not in great detail...is it a full ban on all petrol and diesels or will hybrids still be allowed?

if its the latter then F1 is already ahead of the curve no?

[annawarren]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Petrol car ban by 2040......https://www.ft.com/content/7e61d3ae-...f-99f383b09ff9

Looks like the end is nigh for F1 as we know it...better start getting excited about the prospect of Formula E taking over as the pinnacle of motorsport..

Good news for nature, but not for F1...

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

following some of the EU stories but not in great detail...is it a full ban on all petrol and diesels or will hybrids still be allowed?

if its the latter then F1 is already ahead of the curve no?

The ban is on purely on the sale of new Petrol and Diesel cars. Hybrid cars can still be sold although by then new hybrids probably have the same ICE capacity as a lawnmower, but with 4 turbos.

The ban doesn't effect Trucks or Buses

It's ben suggested that there will still be millions of petrol/diesel cars on the road after that point.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

The ban is on purely on the sale of new Petrol and Diesel cars. Hybrid cars can still be sold although by then new hybrids probably have the same ICE capacity as a lawnmower, but with 4 turbos.

The ban doesn't effect Trucks or Buses

It's ben suggested that there will still be millions of petrol/diesel cars on the road after that point.

The discussions I've heard seem pretty clear that new cars will not have petrol or diesel engines at all so no hybrids either. I cannot imagine this will happen on time but it's bound to happen in the end. Of course there will be a large but dwindling legacy ICE fleet and I imagine there will come a point where people with ICE engines start to suffer range anxiety as more and more filling stations become uneconomic and close down, unless of course enough stay open to serve commercial vehicles.

I don't see how this has any direct connection with motorsport, I see it applying to vehicles for use on the road but huge changes are undoubtedly coming to motorsport too and much of the lower cost parts of the sport have an almost total reliance on parts mass produced for road cars which might become more specialist and expensive.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

The discussions I've heard seem pretty clear that new cars will not have petrol or diesel engines at all so no hybrids either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40726868

Hybrid vehicles, which combine petrol and electric motors, will not be included in the sales ban.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40726868

Hybrid vehicles, which combine petrol and electric motors, will not be included in the sales ban.

Seems I got it wrong, in that case this is completely meaningless as even with no government action at all you won't be able to buy a new non hybrid car with a diesel or petrol engine in 2040, what a joke of an announcement, absolutely pathetic, can't imagine why the media are even covering it.

[P38 in workshop]

I find the comments reflect a rather parochial outlook.Does nobody remember the days when some governments banned cigarette advertising?It didn't kill F1,even though it necessitated having two liveries for each car.It does serve to indicate that the policies of one or two governments might have an effect in those places and that the series can find other places to race where they don't have to comply with such matters.The challenge might be in getting the racing apparatus and appurtenances to the circuits using compliant rad vehicles.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I find the comments reflect a rather parochial outlook.Does nobody remember the days when some governments banned cigarette advertising?It didn't kill F1,even though it necessitated having two liveries for each car.It does serve to indicate that the policies of one or two governments might have an effect in those places and that the series can find other places to race where they don't have to comply with such matters.The challenge might be in getting the racing apparatus and appurtenances to the circuits using compliant rad vehicles.

Precisely!

One of my greatest problems is when you take a look at bulk oil carriers which run HUGE 2 stroke diesels that burn crude oil, you wonder just how much pollution you could save from sorting out shipping alone.
Far more than cars I would venture!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Seems I got it wrong, in that case this is completely meaningless as even with no government action at all you won't be able to buy a new non hybrid car with a diesel or petrol engine in 2040, what a joke of an announcement, absolutely pathetic, can't imagine why the media are even covering it.

Hybrid cars are just a sad joke, they are electric cars made inefficient by carrying a petrol engine and power train around, and a petrol power train made inefficient by carrying an electric motor and batteries around.

The ideal would appear to be a full size slot car set!

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hybrid cars are just a sad joke, they are electric cars made inefficient by carrying a petrol engine and power train around, and a petrol power train made inefficient by carrying an electric motor and batteries around.

The ideal would appear to be a full size slot car set!

I don't agree that hybrids as a concept are a joke although the current models may not be all that good, however whatever people might wish to be true the future is not fossil fuels. There are at least five technologies showing promise to store energy from whatever source for use by vehicles:battery (most mature), hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen ICE, alcohol fuel cells or ICE, compressed gas and liquid air. all except liquid air have already been used in vehicles, in some parts of the world compressed air is powering short range delivery vehicles,a bit like the early uses of battery vehicles but rechargeable as quickly as filling a tank with diesel.

As with alternative energy in general you can criticise any one technology because it will not solve the problem alone and use that as an excuse to do nothing, the trick is to use all the good ideas to complement one another.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by wnut

Precisely!

One of my greatest problems is when you take a look at bulk oil carriers which run HUGE 2 stroke diesels that burn crude oil, you wonder just how much pollution you could save from sorting out shipping alone.
Far more than cars I would venture!

Yes people always like to point out that shipping causes more overall pollution than cars, and they are not wrong. But VLCC oil carriers are not hanging out on the Thames in London, or downtown LA, and they have horrendous pollution problems. So what is causing that?

We're all car geeks and love our big loud engines, but that doesn't we have to defend the car on absolutely everything. Ships cause more worldwide pollution. Cars cause it where people actually live.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

I don't agree that hybrids as a concept are a joke although the current models may not be all that good, however whatever people might wish to be true the future is not fossil fuels. There are at least five technologies showing promise to store energy from whatever source for use by vehicles:battery (most mature), hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen ICE, alcohol fuel cells or ICE, compressed gas and liquid air. all except liquid air have already been used in vehicles, in some parts of the world compressed air is powering short range delivery vehicles,a bit like the early uses of battery vehicles but rechargeable as quickly as filling a tank with diesel.

As with alternative energy in general you can criticise any one technology because it will not solve the problem alone and use that as an excuse to do nothing, the trick is to use all the good ideas to complement one another.

I like the idea of 'rechargeable' compressed air vehicles, but the idea reminds me of something else.
Just down the road from where I work is an old railway engine in a field by the side of the road and when you've looked at it a dew times you realise that although it obviously is a steam train, there's something not quite right about it. Then you realise there's no funnel for the smoke, and that's because it has no firebox.
Apparently it was used in somewhere like a coke manufacturing plant, so a fire is the last thing you need, and was re-charged regularly from the steam boilers in the factory so it could go about its work safely. It would seem that there aren't really any new ideas, just improvements on the old ones...

[Greem]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I like the idea of 'rechargeable' compressed air vehicles, but the idea reminds me of something else.
Just down the road from where I work is an old railway engine in a field by the side of the road and when you've looked at it a dew times you realise that although it obviously is a steam train, there's something not quite right about it. Then you realise there's no funnel for the smoke, and that's because it has no firebox.
Apparently it was used in somewhere like a coke manufacturing plant, so a fire is the last thing you need, and was re-charged regularly from the steam boilers in the factory so it could go about its work safely. It would seem that there aren't really any new ideas, just improvements on the old ones...

There was one of those in a park where I grew up in Manchester, having been rescued from Irlam Steelworks, painted in gaudy colours and parked up for us to climb all over. It mostly got used as a toilet, if I recall correctly!

Steam is a *hugely* powerful energy carrier. Superheated wet steam is used the world over in chemical and large manufacturing plants because it's relatively easy to create and tends to stay in the pipes it moves around in. If it doesn't stay in the pipes, your plant is having a very bad day.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

following some of the EU stories but not in great detail...is it a full ban on all petrol and diesels or will hybrids still be allowed?

if its the latter then F1 is already ahead of the curve no?

What may be allowed will not necessarily determine what the remaining manufacturers (of road cars) deem to make.

With so many of the "premium" manufacturers putting some effort and marketing budget into Formula E and taking the perceived easier path to emission regulations that their major markets are adopting or will be adopting soon, the options for consumers in some markets may well be restricted.

As for motorsport? Will the next generation care?

What seems interesting here is that the major pollution problems related to trucks and buses do not seem to have been mentioned, so one wonders what this future virtue signalling is really all about.

Smoke, probably - but maybe a smoke screen trying to obscure something else that would be more immediately inconvenient.

I don't think one can really speculate about F1 4 years ahead let alone 20 years ahead.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Greem

There was one of those in a park where I grew up in Manchester, having been rescued from Irlam Steelworks, painted in gaudy colours and parked up for us to climb all over. It mostly got used as a toilet, if I recall correctly!

Steam is a *hugely* powerful energy carrier. Superheated wet steam is used the world over in chemical and large manufacturing plants because it's relatively easy to create and tends to stay in the pipes it moves around in. If it doesn't stay in the pipes, your plant is having a very bad day.

Bring back the Stanley Steamer!

With a 100% safe fully autonomous transport system one might envisage some sort of hybrid with a steam generator powered by a time nuclear unit of some sort.

With idiot humans at the controls it would clearly be a non-starter. But with no human intervention the safety angle could be brought with statistical acceptance levels.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by grantp

What seems interesting here is that the major pollution problems related to trucks and buses do not seem to have been mentioned, so one wonders what this future virtue signalling is really all about.

100% Electric powered buses are due to be introduced next year in Harrogate, and by 2020 in Leeds.

There are already 71 all electric buses running in London, and I am sure there are others elsewhere.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

100% Electric powered buses are due to be introduced next year in Harrogate, and by 2020 in Leeds.

There are already 71 all electric buses running in London, and I am sure there are others elsewhere.

That's not the same as committing to forcing the changes which, in terms of public transport for the roads, would not be difficult to do given, as you point out, that there is already some movement in that direction and still 20+ years to develop the technology.

And of course London had Trolley buses decades ago - dropped in favour of total ICEs around the time of the "Clean air" legislation. Quite ironc really.

I assume no connection was made at the time and that the local powerstations, seemingly providing the Trolley Bus "power" were thought to be pollution sources worse than a few additional ICE engines.

That said nothing I have found related to the trolley bus era suggests that potential pollution issues were considered during their deployment and replacement.

[Paradise City]

I think the motorsport world will sharply shrink with the advent of electrical powered cars as the dominant mode of transport.

Much of motorsport is driven by that "fire in the belly" you get from the fossils.

You don't really get that from these electric cars as nice as FE might be.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I can see a future after market product where by there is some sort of new generation Catalytic converter or "nasty fume catcher" type device that will become available to "clean up" more emissions from older cars.

There would no doubt be a motorsports version, or could even be something for motorsports to pioneer that would allow current - then to be historic race cars to continue running.

[Akrapovic]

Racing cars tend to be custom built (above club level). So if you're custom building a car you could run it on a hydrogen internal combustion engine and retain the noise and driving characteristics. Hydrogen isn't great for road cars but it could be a racing fuel solution. Packaged correctly of course.

[Moneyseeker]

This is an interesting one and FWIW my take on it is that F1 will lose it's relevance if for no other reason that it's 'core' market will have died out - how old will many on the forum be 2040 for example? And there will be no young drivers or the interest in cars which just become transport solutions.

One report I have seen sees the phasing out of fossil fuels on sale by 2055/60 in the UK as most remaning ICE cars will be at least 15/20 years old by then (and probably punative taxes to drive them on the road),so there will be a limited market for it. It is thought that most car manufacturers will phase out ICE cars well before 2040 in the UK.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

This is an interesting one and FWIW my take on it is that F1 will lose it's relevance if for no other reason that it's 'core' market will have died out - how old will many on the forum be 2040 for example? And there will be no young drivers or the interest in cars which just become transport solutions.

One report I have seen sees the phasing out of fossil fuels on sale by 2055/60 in the UK as most remaning ICE cars will be at least 15/20 years old by then (and probably punative taxes to drive them on the road),so there will be a limited market for it. It is thought that most car manufacturers will phase out ICE cars well before 2040 in the UK.

There would, in effect, be no market by then except, possibly, at the lowest end.

But in any case with electric will almost certainly come autonomy and autonomy at scale would be so much more cost effective and deliverable if total.

Think how much lighter and less polluting to manufacture the travel pods could be if the autonomous aspect prevailed and there were no risks from vehicles outside the autonomous light pod system.

And then the always connected controls and ready cash flow of metered usage ....

The politicians will not have any desire to at all to defer such benefits under the guise of safety and security.

[S griffin]

Unless they can make electric cars more noisy, it's not right for F1 to make the switch