Buying Cars from Private sellers

[exnigel]

Hi All

I am facing a little dilemma and would welcome views from tententhers as to what I should do. Apologies for the length of the post…..

In April this year I bought an MGB to compete in GTSCC, HRDC and Equipe GTS two driver races with my son. All these series require HTP’s and so I wanted to make sure that I bought a car with an 1800 as opposed to a 1950cc engine.

I found a car being sold privately but owned by a race team principal in more modern Racing. He had owned the MG for 18 years, and we had a lengthy discussion about the engine, its size and eligibility, and he assured me that was genuinely 1840cc (the max allowed) as was stated in the advert, with steel crank, rods etc.

The sale contract stated the car was “as seen” but my understanding was that effectively referred to condition, and didn’t allow a false description. The car appeared well built, clean and was not overly quick, so was perfect for the first races.

We did three races in the car (HRDC GTSCC and Masters 3 hours) and it became clear the car was underpowered, and so at the end of October we put the car on the rolling road and then pulled the engine and dismantled it. At that point it became evident that the car was 1950cc. The reason it was slow was the cam timing had slipped significantly and the rocker shaft was fractured.

I have contacted the seller, who informs me that he had no idea that the engine was 1950, that he had ordered and thought he had received a FIA compliant engine from the engine builder in 1998, and had used it extensively in FIA events. Unfortunately the engine preparer (Greg Margetts) died last year and so he can’t be asked, and the vendor has no paperwork evidencing any work or description of the engine as it was all so long ago. Besides he says the contract states as seen, so it isn’t really his problem.

To make the car legal I will have to have the block relined and bored and new pistons. The parts and labour for this exercise will be about £3k. Obviously there will be labour to re assemble the engine etc but that I would have done anyway.

My dilemma is what to do next: I would not have bought the car if I had known what the engine size was, and nor would anyone else at close to the price I paid. Therefore even if I accept that the vendor didn’t know, he has still profited from his representation which was clearly made to effect the sale of the car. My understanding of the words “as seen” is for mechanical integrity, not to absolve the vendor of any responsibility for anything. Logically if the engine was real and went bang I accept that as my problem, but here I am not repairing but correcting, which seems different.

What do you all think? Should I accept it, should I expect some contribution from the vendor, and if so should I issue a claim in the small claims court?

Nigel B

[Lancsbreaker]

Whilst sympathetic to your situation, I can't help but feel that its unlikely you did three races with a fractured rocker shaft.........

On the legal aspect, unless you have some proof that your purchase was clearly conditional on the engine being 1840cc or less, you might have trouble going down the legal route.....tho I'm no lawyer....

[bauble]

If the vendor has any standing in the community, a threat of 'scandal' or dishonesty might persuade him to help put right the situation. Naming and shaming, as long as not libellous, may give him pause for thought.

Other than that you might be better to just accept your lot, and forget about pursuing a legal route, as the costs, time and aggravation is rarely worth the bother in my experience of life.

If I had owned and raced a car for 18 years and did not know what size the engine was ...................... well!

[Mike Bell]

Have to agree with Richard, I'm afraid. (Apart form the rocker shaft- they can fracture but stay intact enough to operate. )

Regards what to do about the engine- Why not source a used road car standard block to work from and start again, rather than fit liners to the current one? Doug Smith / MG Motorsport could be a useful person to ask about availability... Your 1950cc B engine can be used in some series so is far from worthless.....

[delta]

Nigel . I have been stitched up a couple of times.went to court .Lost the first case so that cost me . I won second case but still did not get any money back . So my advise is to move on . We are building a new 1840 engine for our racing MGB . If you need any help PM me .

[The Fat Clerk]

Caveat emptor - Buyer Beware!

[midgetman]

The vendor has no proof of course that you didn't bore the engine out yourself in the interim. "It was 1840 when it left me guv! Got the invoice to prove it!" Not casting aspersions, but it's what I would say whether I was "guilty" or not.

[Paul D]

I'm afraid I tend to agree with the consensus so far. Your legal position is shaky, to say the least. The law is all about what you can prove, not what you think or even know to be true - if you can't prove it, then you're knackered I'm afraid, from a legal standpoint.

With the engine builder dead, it comes down to your word against the seller's, and as it sounds like the seller is claiming he ordered an engine that was compliant, and he says he bought it in good faith on that basis (which he may even have done), then I think you would struggle in any court.

More hassle than it's worth to pursue it IMHO - caveat emptor as has been said. Accept it and move on I reckon.

I've bought plenty of modified cars over the years, but I always take anything I'm told by the seller with a pinch of salt unless I can physically check it for myself - which, of course, with engine & transmission internals, isn't really practical. So you pay your money and roll the dice...

[delta]

Look on the bright side Nigel . You are not alone and you will have a great car at the end . I get asked more these days from people wanting to buy FIA MGB than any other car .

[exnigel]

Hi all
thanks to those who have expressed views on this. I have to admit to being caught between irritation and practicality......motorsport is a hobby and as such I am much more trusting and try and avoid hassle, as I feel that constant diligence on money, contracts etc makes it more like the day job, and that would leach the enjoyment away.
as I hinted before, if the engine had been 1840 and disintegrated I would have been annoyed but not felt cheated. It is the misrepresentation (either knowing or unknowing) that rankles.
Interestingly, I suspect that the rocker shaft has been broken a while: it was right at the end next to the last post and from the state of the ends it doesn't look recent. The slipped timing may have been related to that but the effect was to make the engine very flat after 6000 rpm and so we never revved higher than that. The engine pulled smoothly on the rolling road, and the guy who pulled the engine apart was very surprised, commenting that if we had used a standard rev limit of 6800 the result would have been different. I will try and post the pictures below.
I will now have to decide what to do with the engine: maybe putting it back together as a 1950 and selling it on and staring again. If you have any thoughts Mike on where I could sell that I would be grateful to hear: the only series I have heard which welcomes 1950 is the MG Car club. Delta I will pm you about the engine you are building.
As to Bauble's comment on racing a car for 18 years and not knowing the engine size I couldn't possibly comment.
best to all
Nigel B

[Mike Bell]

Nigel, it is not uncommon to fit special end pedestals to the rocker shaft that offer more support. See here- http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/pedesta...-mgs10742.html

And uprated shafts are also available.

I thought the original Equipe GTS series allowed 1950cc engines, but things may have changed. If you decide to sell and it's advertised as 1950cc, then up to buyers to decide if suitable for their use!

BTW I'm not sure if vernier timing gear is FIA spec, but sure someone will confirm yes or no.....

[Brian A]

Originally Posted by exnigel

........I will now have to decide what to do with the engine: maybe putting it back together as a 1950 and selling it on and staring again. If you have any thoughts Mike on where I could sell that I would be grateful to hear: the only series I have heard which welcomes 1950 is the MG Car club. Delta I will pm you about the engine you are building.
.......
Nigel B

Nigel
Increasingly, the 1950 MGB engine is becoming less welcome in various race series although the MGCC probably still allows it in the BCV8 Championship. Maybe someone would want it as a fast road engine.

I would suggest getting another block and using the remaining good bits from your current engine (you said steel crank/rods etc.) as being a relatively economic way of moving forward.

[MGDavid]

So he's been running a 1950 in FIA events for donkey's years and protests his innocence; wouldn't be the first time I'm sure
It should sell well once fixed.
If either you or Delta need a standard B road engine to start with, i have a couple here and I'm not expensive.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

So he's been running a 1950 in FIA events for donkey's years and protests his innocence; wouldn't be the first time I'm sure
It should sell well once fixed.
If either you or Delta need a standard B road engine to start with, i have a couple here and I'm not expensive.

It might be good to know who the vendor was, could save someone else a lot of trouble.

[275 GTB-4]

Joining the chorus...

To make the car legal I will have to have the block relined and bored and new pistons. The parts and labour for this exercise will be about £3k. Obviously there will be labour to re assemble the engine etc but that I would have done anyway.

Get on with it and heed the good advice above...and ENJOY participating with your Son

[terence]

Quite agree,but £3000 for sleaving and new set of pistons? Would have thought that to be a bit inflated.
However,I personally would take this route.End pedestals ,cam timing is all acceptable.
I have deep concerns about one or two "specialists"-quite frankly I wouldnt go anywhere near them!!
Best bet is to contact Iain for advice /help.He is one of the most honest car builders I know and I know that if he tells you something,there is no need for a second opinion.
I,not through choice I hastily add,had been advised by one "specialist" that my rather special(expensive because of its compliant design) was cracked but not to worry as a fully prepped race crank was available.It was only 10 undersize on all journals.So,after two years I got my car back from its "repairers".I had previously collected my special crank,had it tested at Ivor Searls(whom I trust 100 percent for all engine machining work) Report from them them was that there was absolutely nothing wrong with it as I had fully expected!(I think it was possibly earmarked for another car!
However,the "fully prepped"crank was kept in place b ( I was so ****ed off with the poor quality of the "repairs" I had decided to get shot of it)The replacement crank was fitted with with 10 undersize shells,but as it turned out this size was totally wrong for a 20 undersize and didnt do much for the oil pressure!!!"Specialist"claimed that the 20 were not availble!(What a fxxxxxg stupid thing to say!)Quick phonecall to my local machine shop andvten minutes later I was in possesion of correct Lead Indium shells!
However, I digress,but it just goes to show that once you find someone you know you can trust ------

[MGDavid]

can't edit my last post - but memory's playing tricks again, having just checked, both my spares are 5-bearing blocks

[terence]

Its the one to use,threes are more trouble thn they are worth.Still compliant anyway.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

can't edit my last post - but memory's playing tricks again, having just checked, both my spares are 5-bearing blocks

As Terence says, 5 bearing blocks are the ones we all use, so get selling!

[MGDavid]

Ah, OK, thanks guys.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

So he's been running a 1950 in FIA events for donkey's years and protests his innocence; wouldn't be the first time I'm sure
It should sell well once fixed.
If either you or Delta need a standard B road engine to start with, i have a couple here and I'm not expensive.

A 1950cc engine will be welcome in CSCC races.

I thought all MGB race engines were 1950 these days anyway lol

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

A 1950cc engine will be welcome in CSCC races.

I thought all MGB race engines were 1950 these days anyway lol

No, 2.1........

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

As Terence says, 5 bearing blocks are the ones we all use, so get selling!

But 3s spin more freely Mike!

[Hope your trip downunder all went well ]

[terence]

Yes they do,but you do need a decent steel crank to get the most out of them.Then there is the B block problem of sonic vibrations cracking the centre block journal.It can be overcome but at a price.
Should also add thst the 18v head is not actually compliant as it is a much later design.This is the head with the extra "shoulders"on the outside centre of the head.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

No, 2.1........

Stirrer😂