Category engine

[V8 Fireworks]

Alan Gow suggests it makes no difference to fans if all the race cars use the same engine -- subsequently, the vast majority of entrants in the BTCC use the category "Swindon" engine which is based on a GM engine. The trouble locally though seems to be complaints from Ford fans about Fords using Chevrolet engines, or from Holdens fans about Holdens using Ford engines -- Casper has solved the issue: use an engine from another manufacturer entirely.

Originally Posted by justracing

Alan Gow is very rarely wrong IMHO. I've been a big fan of the BTCC here in the UK and I also follow the Aussie series from afar and to quote AG:
“We looked at things like the engine, no one on the side of the spectator bank cares about the internal workings of the engine.

Originally Posted by Casper

Use the Nissan motor...problem solved and they will both be unhappy.

The Dodge 6.2 Hellcat crate engine should do the trick:

707 hp @ 6,000 rpm
880 Nm @ 4,800 rpm
$15,900 USD / $24,700 AUD
https://www.moparproshop.com/inc/sdetail/16460/16733
Engine details: https://www.enginelabs.com/news/hell...ngine-details/ [Iron block, forged pistons & rods -- presumably this HEMI is durable enough for racing?]

Seems a fairly affordable way to get 707 reliable Dodge horsepower.

The only concern with the Dodge Hellcat is that being supercharged, does it suffer heat soak when it is run continually flat-out for long periods of time? It has an air-to-water intercooler sandwiched under the blower, but this might need to be tested and perhaps upgraded.

Thoughts on a category engine for Supercars and what it should be?

Otherwise it could be the Chevrolet LS or LT (direct-injected LS).

Or it could be the Ford Coyote. Probably the standard 5.0L block, as the bored-out 5.2L uses "plasma arc spray-on cylinder liners" and can't be easily honed or rebuilt. Pairing a flatplane crank with an unequal length header, like the Shelby GT350 Mustang, would give the Supercars category a fun and unique sound.

What other options are there?

[pinkdigital]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

the vast majority of entrants in the BTCC use the category "Swindon" engine which is based on a GM engine.

The vast majority don't use the TOCA engine and I don't think any driver in the top 10 in 2019 used it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by pinkdigital

The vast majority don't use the TOCA engine and I don't think any driver in the top 10 in 2019 used it.

My mistake.

I thought everyone apart from Honda, BMW and Subaru runners use the TOCA engine? Who else doesn't use it?

Edit -- It seems many of the Honda privateers use the TOCA engine and not the Honda K series:

Swindon Powertrain will be again supplying TOCA engines and engineering services to the majority of the 30 car strong 2019 Kwikfit British Touring Car Championship grid this year. Our engines powered the AMD Tuning Honda Civics driven by Rory Butcher, Sam Tordoff and Mike Bushell.

https://swindonpowertrain.com/uk/news.aspx

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by pinkdigital

The vast majority don't use the TOCA engine and I don't think any driver in the top 10 in 2019 used it.

4 of the top 10 used it.
16 cars ran with it in total. That figure is increased for 2020.

[Mixer]

There might potentially be a less biased source for your information.

16/30 is TECHNICALLY a majority.

We shouldn't really be using PR puff as evidence of anything.....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

My mistake.

I thought everyone apart from Honda, BMW and Subaru runners use the TOCA engine? Who else doesn't use it?

Ford

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ford

I see! Given the reputation of the Ford Ecoboost for a variety of ailments [cracked heads etc], that is very brave of them!

Originally Posted by Mixer

We shouldn't really be using PR puff as evidence of anything.....

I am surprised it is so contentious!

The point is that the BTCC Audi, Mercedes, Toyota, Alfa, Renault etc all use the category engine and nobody cares that these vehicles don't have the correct engine.

With Team18 quitting due to costs, every measure to reduce costs in Supercars seems critical. Replacing a $150,000AUD engine that requires lots of machining and custom parts and can only run around 5,000km between rebuilds, with a relatively unmodified category engine that costs $25,000AUD and can run 10,000km between rebuilds seem an important step to containing costs.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The point is that the BTCC Audi, Mercedes, Toyota, Alfa, Renault etc all use the category engine and nobody cares that these vehicles don't have the correct engine.

I think the main reason most people don't care about a lot of those cars in the BTCC is that they are not real "factory supported" teams and they never amount to anything. The Toyotas are somewhat prominent but the Merc and Alfa are honestly a bit tragic in the BTCC.

Sure there's lots of cars, but half of them are rubbish and the drivers in the back half of the field are nobodies. A lot like the old days of Supercars.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Alan Gow suggests it makes no difference to fans if all the race cars use the same engine -- subsequently, the vast majority of entrants in the BTCC use the category "Swindon" engine which is based on a GM engine. The trouble locally though seems to be complaints from Ford fans about Fords using Chevrolet engines, or from Holdens fans about Holdens using Ford engines -- Casper has solved the issue: use an engine from another manufacturer entirely.





The Dodge 6.2 Hellcat crate engine should do the trick:

707 hp @ 6,000 rpm
880 Nm @ 4,800 rpm
$15,900 USD / $24,700 AUD
https://www.moparproshop.com/inc/sdetail/16460/16733
Engine details: https://www.enginelabs.com/news/hell...ngine-details/ [Iron block, forged pistons & rods -- presumably this HEMI is durable enough for racing?]

Seems a fairly affordable way to get 707 reliable Dodge horsepower.

The only concern with the Dodge Hellcat is that being supercharged, does it suffer heat soak when it is run continually flat-out for long periods of time? It has an air-to-water intercooler sandwiched under the blower, but this might need to be tested and perhaps upgraded.

Thoughts on a category engine for Supercars and what it should be?

Otherwise it could be the Chevrolet LS or LT (direct-injected LS).

Or it could be the Ford Coyote. Probably the standard 5.0L block, as the bored-out 5.2L uses "plasma arc spray-on cylinder liners" and can't be easily honed or rebuilt. Pairing a flatplane crank with an unequal length header, like the Shelby GT350 Mustang, would give the Supercars category a fun and unique sound.

What other options are there?

Judd or Gibson LMP-engines... Especially the Judd V10 would bring a glorious sound and be fully neutral in terms of being related to any OEM.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I think the main reason most people don't care about a lot of those cars in the BTCC is that they are not real "factory supported" teams and they never amount to anything. The Toyotas are somewhat prominent but the Merc and Alfa are honestly a bit tragic in the BTCC.

Sure there's lots of cars, but half of them are rubbish and the drivers in the back half of the field are nobodies. A lot like the old days of Supercars.

Lots of factory teams in Supercars...

Lots of talent at the back half of the field in Supercars...

Lots of non-rubbish cars at the back half of the field in Supercars...


It's funny (and quite tragic) that even now, with the series on a ventilator, there is still this focus on utterly frivolous expenses. Oh no! A spec motor may turn off all those manufacturers banging down the door to join lol

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

With Team18 quitting due to costs, every measure to reduce costs in Supercars seems critical.

Agree on reducing costs but didn't know that Team18 was quitting and citing costs as the reason for quitting. When was it announced? I'll go and have a look for the info.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Agree on reducing costs but didn't know that Team18 was quitting and citing costs as the reason for quitting. When was it announced? I'll go and have a look for the info.

I meant 23Red, my mistake.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I meant 23Red, my mistake.

Was hoping that it was something like that - although Señor Forklift has been reported as "considering" the future of his team so your point may well be prophetic.

I can't see all of them continuing given the impact THAT virus is having on so many businesses generally and certainly for some sponsors, the loss of corporate hostility opportunities would ultimately be a deal breaker.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I can't see all of them continuing given the impact THAT virus is having on so many businesses generally and certainly for some sponsors, the loss of corporate hostility opportunities would ultimately be a deal breaker.

After witnessing blokes being on the drink for 4 days straight at Adelaide in a sponsors box, I've seen a fair bit of corporate 'hostility' first hand.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by mayhem

After witnessing blokes being on the drink for 4 days straight at Adelaide in a sponsors box, I've seen a fair bit of corporate 'hostility' first hand.

Yep, that's why most people around events refer to it that way (out of public hearing of course).

[Razor]

A few crate engines (say three: V8, TTV6, TIL4) built by Supercars technical team with a engine person per manufacturer to help guide the build. (One from Ford, BMW, etc for example)

[S griffin]

Keep it simple I say, let the manufacturers build it to the regulations and we’ll see a good formula come of it

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Keep it simple I say, let the manufacturers build it to the regulations and we’ll see a good formula come of it

Why would the European/American manufacturers want to join a small category on the other side of the world with very small volumes in the domestic market, it simply does not make sense and stopped makng sense when local production stopped. The whole ethos of what made SC a good category went down the slot with the production closures but I don't think that penny has dropped yet even a few years down the track.

[S griffin]

I think it might have to take a while for things to settle down. It will have to keep things simple for now. We have had good times, but they won't last and we might have to start from zero. We just need to focus on survival for now

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Keep it simple I say, let the manufacturers build it to the regulations and we’ll see a good formula come of it

The concern I have with is that 10:1 compression is too low for a racing engine, 7500rpm rev limit is too low for a racing engine [Brockie was revving the Holden 308 to 8000+ in the 80's after all], and banning variable timing and direct injection is just silly. Your approach is not completely terrible, but it was VERY unfair that Volvo were given a lot more concessions than Nissan (Volvo were allowed a much smaller bore and much longer stroke than the other engines, which was much better suited to the low 7500rpm rev limit).

More cutting-edge categories like Japanese SuperGT and Formula One are pushing ahead with turbulent jet injection (and the ultra-lean super-efficient combustion that goes with it), meanwhile Supercars is stuck on port injection and 10:1 compression and (presumably) the horribly poor thermal efficiency that goes with that!

With a "have at it" approach, BMW and Audi spent 80 million euro on just engine development alone for their 2L turbo DTM engines.

Audi 610hp DTM engine:


It's rather ugly isn't it? But it is 85 kg, which is a good ~40 kg lighter than a production-based four cylinder engine... So there's that I guess.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Your approach is not completely terrible, but it was VERY unfair that Volvo were given a lot more concessions than Nissan (Volvo were allowed a much smaller bore and much longer stroke than the other engines, which was much better suited to the low 7500rpm rev limit).

Wasn't unfair, both Volvo and Erebus asked for and received dispensation on different points, the Nissan team wasn't smart enough to crunch the numbers and ask. Racing is as much about politics and intelligent interpretation of rules as it is engineering.

GRM won in the Volvo, and they won in Holdens.
Erebus won in the faux Benz, and they have been very competitive since.

The Kellys Holdens never threatened and unfortunately the mediocrity continued with the Nissans. Their engine was never particularly competitive and its clear post-Mustang that the car probably carried aerodynamic deficiencies that the team were not smart enough to identify, until the Mustang forced the realisation.

There can only be technical parity; it doesn't make a given team a winner.

[Armco Bender]

I want big,noisey,flame belching V8's that suck up carbon credits and melt polar ice caps.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I want big,noisey,flame belching V8's that suck up carbon credits and melt polar ice caps.

V8Utes, NZV8s and TA2 proved you don't have to spend $200k an engine to get it, but Supercars didn't change because of the existing investment.

[S griffin]

Those are different, but V8s have showed how good they can do it, with a few minor tweaks here and there

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Those are different, but V8s have showed how good they can do it, with a few minor tweaks here and there

$150,000 each for a heavily restricted engine is a good job well done!?

Even with Ford BOSS and Chevrolet small block engines, other categories can make more power for less money...