Brabham BT16

[RichardIII]

Last week, I saw a Brabham BT 16, chassisplate # F2 - 28 - 65, frame number AM ? 99? in Germany. The car was converted in the late 70ties as Formula Ford car. The owner bought it few month ago in Belgique in very sad condition. There is not very much left from the old F2 car, which was driven by Brabham on 30. 08. 1965 Brands Hatch and Oulton Park, 18. 09. 1965 (asT car).

Engine in those days was the Cosworth SCA F2 1-litre engine.

Has anyone more information about those cars?
I am not very familar with Brabham.

Thank you for your help.

[Bryan Miller]

Richard111.

Triumph Herald/Spitfire front uprights , short rear mag uprights [long version came in for the BT18's].
Chassis virtually identical to BT14 and BT15.
In F2 form with Cosworth SCA ,a Hewland MK.7 six speed gearbox.

Suggest you at least obtain a copy of Brabham + Ralt + Honda book by Mike Lawrence.

Wheels would have been 6.0" or 6.5" x 13 dia. front and 8.0" rears x 13" dia.
Serck oil/water radiator combined at front, triangular shaped dry sump tank immeadiately between radiator and front bulkhead .
Bryan .

[cirrus]

Here's what a BT16 looked like in it's heyday

[cirrus]

If the owner plans to restore the car to its original specification, then the mechanical items in the back could cause a problem. SCA's and Mk7 boxes are very rare.

Some BT16s were sold as high spec F3 cars, and that would be a much more affordable proposition, and almost as fast. However, I'm not sure how the FIA would view such a car if it could not be proved that it ran as an F3 in period.

I would rather see the car being raced, even if it was not in totally 100% original form.

[Chris Townsend]

Brabham BT18 28 66 is one of the few BT18s where there is any record of the owner in period in contemporary magazines. I don't understand the claims for Brabham driving it, as Autosport has this car in 1967 as being raced by Reine Wisell, and it belonging to Picko Troberg in 1966. According to F1R [not always reliable but better in the 1960s] the works F2 cars that year were 18, 19, 20 [the prototype BT21]. Works F3s included 1 and 21 run by Chequered Flag

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

er...

Or I could learn to read. BT16 - 28 -65 was one of Brabham's cars in the 65 season according to F1R

My this crow tastes good

[diz]

Hi folks,
I have posted a thread elsewhere, on the Blackjack FF1600. A previous owner is trying to find it.

Do you know if the initials AM are usual within Brabham frame numbers?

Hopefully this may be a clue for me, as an AM [Alan Minshaw - he of DT fame] is looking for one of his old cars

[allenbrown]

AM means Arch Motors, who built all(?) of Brabham frames. So all Brabham frames of this time would have an AM number stamped somewhere near the back but any modifications or repairs may mean that doesn't survive.

There is no direct way of relating the AM number to the Brabham chassis number.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Most of the early Brabham chassis were built by RACING FRAMES Arch Motors dont come on to Brabham scene until the BT14 F Libre car, Racing Frames built chassis for Brabham on and off until the BT23. It also thought that Buckler Engineering might have also built some of the BT6 FJ Frames too.

[allenbrown]

This might help anyone looking for missing BT16s:

According to Canadian Track & Traffic (Feb 1969), Rob Leeson bought the ex-Bridges BT16. THis car, according to the article, had been built in Sep 1965 for Frank Lythgoe and was raced by Bob Anderson, Alan Rollinson and Mike Beckwith in F2. In the spring of 1967 it was bought by David Bridges for Brian Redman to drive. The 997cc SCA was bored out to 1592cc by Bridges mechanics and raced until Bridges Lola T100 turned up.

Bought by Leeson in Jan 1968, it was almost immediately crashed at Brands. While being repaired it was fitted with a twin-cam and raced again in Sep 1968 when he picked up a couple of libre wins. Leeson planned to use it in the 1969 Canadian series.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

This might help anyone looking for missing BT16s:

According to Canadian Track & Traffic (Feb 1969), Rob Leeson bought the ex-Bridges BT16. THis car, according to the article, had been built in Sep 1965 for Frank Lythgoe and was raced by Bob Anderson, Alan Rollinson and Mike Beckwith in F2. In the spring of 1967 it was bought by David Bridges for Brian Redman to drive. The 997cc SCA was bored out to 1592cc by Bridges mechanics and raced until Bridges Lola T100 turned up.

Bought by Leeson in Jan 1968, it was almost immediately crashed at Brands. While being repaired it was fitted with a twin-cam and raced again in Sep 1968 when he picked up a couple of libre wins. Leeson planned to use it in the 1969 Canadian series.

Allen

Up to my ears in libre cars still. The Leeson car above matches the history of BT16 F2-23-65 in the F1R F2 records. It would then have been Rollinson's multiple libre winner with a 1.5-litre stretched SCA in the latter half of 1966 when entered by Lythgoe.

I wonder if it's still in Canada...

Allen

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

The Leeson car above matches the history of BT16 F2-23-65 in the F1R F2 records.
I wonder if it's still in Canada...

Allen

I can fill in the rest of this cars history. I bought it from the guy who brought it down from Canada in 1985. I raced it in vintage races here in California through 88. I will go into more detail once I dig up the notes. I have no history prior to Leeson but the crash and trip to Canada match my story and it still has the dash plate f2-23-65.

Bob Micheletti

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I wonder if it's still in Canada...

Originally Posted by Bob Micheletti

I bought it ...

I love this forum!

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I love this forum!

I second that motion! This board is amazing...

Brabham BT-16 F2-23-65

When I purchased the car it was without a logbook but came with a journal that had the following entries:

[Probably Simon Gardner]
On July 19-78 I bought from Kevin Skinner one Brabham BT 16 with BT 21 suspension. Car is without engine. Skinner sold me a Ford Twin Cam 1600cc with about 8500 RPM’s.

[Probably Jerry Ives]
Car purchased Nov 4-79 from Simon Gardner in Burnaby. Car is with Twin Cam in good running order. Rebuild body change color to red – white wings.

[Next page – unknown who wrote recap of history. Handwriting does not match]
Bought 1967 by Rob Leeson, raced in UK that year, crashed at Silverstone rebuilt and brought to Westwood 1968. Raced all season in conference. 1968 champion. Sold to Pierce Isaacs (pi symbol) in 1970. Ran 1970 season and 1971. Retired.
Sat dis-assembled at Abingdon Motors till Skinner bought in 1973.

When I bought the car I made the following entry:
Car bought from Jerry Ives by Bob Micheletti in Feb 1985 (Jerry had used the car for school in Canada purchase date unknown). Ground up restoration by Bob in early 85 to prepare car for vintage racing. First vintage race 7-85 at Willow Springs. New logbook started.

The car was Maroon when I bought it from Jerry. He had brought it down from Canada when he moved to California. He never ran the car in the US. It had the dash plate with f2-23-56 on it. I neglected to record the Arch Motors number. The rear suspension was BT 21 but the original pickup points for the short hub carriers were still there. It had the MRD cast motor mounts for the Twin Cam and a Brabham magnesium gearbox adaptor and side plates on a mk5. It came with a George Reed fuel cell installed, an aluminum can (probably the original tank) with a rubbery coating on the outside and foam inside. Spare parts included a large aluminum tank that wrapped over the top of the foot well and down the other side intricately fit around the side tubes to get maximum capacity. With both tanks the capacity must have been 15 or 20 gallons. There were 10 Brabham wheels, if I remember correctly 2 - 5”, 2 – 7” and 2 – 9” daises (round spoke), 2 - 10” and 2 - 12” square spokes. It also had a hole through the nose for a set of wings and a high wing for the rear, which I never used.

I completely disassembled the car and stripped the frame to check the welds. The car was reassembled with all new hardware, bearings, plumbing and electrical. I raced it the rest of 85 including the first “Return to Palm Springs Road Races” in November. The following year, 86 I won the “single seat points championship” with VARA (Vintage Auto Racing Association). In the middle of the year I repainted the bodywork orange with a white stripe and band on the nose. On of the highlights of 86 was a support race we ran for the Times Grand Prix of Endurance at my favorite track, Riverside. It was supposed to be a vintage formula 1 race but to fill the field there were some F-5000s, Atlantics and B cars invited. I put the 10s and 12s on with slicks and had a ball! I finished 3rd overall and first in class, ahead of some very fast cars. Also in 86 Sir Jack signed the logbook at the Palm Springs event. In 87 I again won the points for the year.

At the beginning of 1988 I sold the car to Christopher Leggett. He had the car gone through completely again by Rick Cresse and Kevin Bollinger of Vintage Racecar Restoration. The engine was redone by Dave Vegher and the car painted red with a white stripe. It is fuzzy how long Chris ran the car but I think 2 or 3 years. He then sold it to David Long who pained it black. I saw the car at 2 VARA events but lost track of it after that. I will see if I can find out where the car is currently and post again. I think I have a lead but it may take some time.

Sorry for the loooong post but once you get me started I can't SHUT UP!

Please see this thread for my current project (another Ron T. car)

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...t=88715&page=2
starts at post #20

Regards,

Bob Micheletti

Ralt 1980 RT-5 #201
1966 Diva Valkre

[Leighton Irwin]

Bruce Jensen had a BT16 in late 1969 puchased from Fred Opert. The engine was from Bruce's MK7 Elva and was a twin cam. It had a MK5 Hewland and the was supposed to be the Jochem Rindt F2 car. It was always entered as a BT18 in pro races. In 1970 it went back to Fred when Bruce bought his BT21.

[Chris Townsend]

Rindt's car [F2.2.65 according to F1R] was being hillclimbed in Aug/Sept 68 by Hans Obrist. Anyone know where it went after that?
There is a good chance Bruce Jensen's car might have been ex Winkelmann though.

Chris

[zucca]

Brabham BT16 - F2 - 02 -65 1965 Formula 2 ex. Rindt Roy Winkelmann ??? Martinelli & Sonvico RT/Silvio Moser CH, Hans Bütsch CH?, Hans Obrist CH, attualmente Konrad (Cony) Lutzinger Rudolfstetten CH

Hi has also the Sister car from Alan Rees, both in Winkelmann colours.

[Leighton Irwin]

The colours were right for Bruce's car to be ex Winkleman

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by zucca

Brabham BT16 - F2 - 02 -65 1965 Formula 2 ex. Rindt Roy Winkelmann ??? Martinelli & Sonvico RT/Silvio Moser CH, Hans Bütsch CH?, Hans Obrist CH, attualmente Konrad (Cony) Lutzinger Rudolfstetten CH

Hi has also the Sister car from Alan Rees, both in Winkelmann colours.

Is this (F2-2-65) the car that Klaus Fiedler started historic racing with, I think he restored and raced the car then sold it back to the person he bought it from?

[zucca]

I think no!

The best, ask him directly,

Lutziger Classiccars
Bernstr. 4
8964 Rudolfstetten AG
+41 56 631 10 00

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

[John could you move this to BT15 at an appropriate time, and I think it's probably time to put BT16 into the chassis history archive]

Chris

I'll sort this out, shortly, Chris!

[John Turner]

Ok, I've moved the BT15 stuff to its archive thread, but is this BT16 thread really ready for the archive? A few individual chassis have been mentioned but is that enough? How many were built? Do we have a list of the chassis numbers etc?

[allenbrown]

I suspect so. If we put this in the archive, we might find out.

Allen

[John Turner]

Chicken before the egg, Allen, but OK!

[Chris Townsend]

John, consider that egg fertilized, laid, hatched and running around in the farmyard!!

BT16
F2.1.65 Winkelmann for Alan Rees
F2.2.65 Winkelmann for Jochen Rindt, then 1966 Martinelli Sonvico for Silvio Moser, 1968 Hans Obrist and on as described above
F2.3.65 Kurt Ahrens, 1966 Manfred Mohr, retained to 1968 when new Tecno delivered
F2.4.65 Aurora Gear for Trevor Taylor, retained to 1967 For sale by Taylor June 67 AS
F2.5.65 Unknown
F2.6.65 Sc.Sorocaima: Mario Cabral, retained 1966
F2.7.65 Baldyne: Dennis O'Sullivan then to Lindberg; 1966 Jean Johansson
F2.8.65 Coombs: Graham Hill with BRM 71, retained 1966, then Allen: Fred Gibson, 1970 to Col Green
F2.9.65 Martinelli: Silvio Moser then to Ken Sager [is this likely?] 1966: Ken Sager 1967: Dave Oxton; 1969: Graham Watson; 1970: Brian Faloon; 1971: Warren Elleray
F2.10.65 Works: Denis Hulme with SCA; 1966: MRS: Lewis Kerr, retained 1967
F2.11.65 Works: Jack Brabham with Honda S800
F2.12.65 Unknown
F2.13.65 Celerity Inc: Tommy Hitchcock with MAE
F2.14.65 Unknown
F2.15.65 Chequered Flag: Chris Irwin [F1R 18.9] Roy Pike late season; 1966 Chequered Flag: Roger Mac
F2.16.65 Lythgoe: Adam Wylie
F2.17.65 Lythgoe: Alan Rollinson; 1966: P. Groggins [SCCA] to 1971
F2.18.65 Unknown 1965, then 1966 Morris: Cliff Haworth retained 1967
F2.19.65 Works: Jack Brabham with SCA; 1966: Robert Lamplough for Kai Godenheim/Raino Rinne; 1967 Lamplough for Raimi Rinne; 1968 John Watson (Lotus t/c) 1969 Dave Berry until 1971
F2.20.65 Unknown
F2.21.65 Martinelli: Guglielmo Bellasi
F2.22.65 Scaradi: Harry Stiller with MAE, retained by Stiller 1966
F2.23.65 Bob Anderson 1966: Lythgoe: John Taylor/Mike Beckwith; 1967: Bridges: Malcolm Smith/Brian Redman; 1968: Rob Leason in UK appears in Libre at Silverstone MN 19.9.68 p.17; 1969 Leason to Canada and on as above
F2.24.65 to 27.65 unknown
F2.28.65 Works: Jack Brabham
F2.29.65 Unknown 1965, 1966 Sports Motors: Peter Gethin
F2.30.65 Unknown
F2.31.65 unknown in period, for sale Len Selby 2000
F2.32.65 unknown
F2.33.65 Walter Habbeger; 1966 bruno Frey

Chris