Too many race series!

[Winterton]

Does anyone remember the great Tony Liddell? Tony was behind the original concept of the "Super Coupe Cup". Quite a few series failed to impress last year and some failed to even start.

TVR Tuscans failed to get numbers.

SCV8 failed to start!

Eurocars will circulated in low numbers.

Formula Woman was a farce which distracted attention from real racers.

What BARC, BRSCC and the MSA need to do is almalganate these failing series. Tony proved it could be done with the super coupe cup.

[Tim Falce]

It is a bit unfair to include Formula Woman as this was purely a made for TV money spinner (that didn't, if what is written in another thread is correct) and nothing to do with national or club racing in general.

[Winterton]

Originally Posted by falcemob

It is a bit unfair to include Formula Woman as this was purely a made for TV money spinner (that didn't, if what is written in another thread is correct) and nothing to do with national or club racing in general.

Maybe running it in the Super Coupe Cup might be the answer.

[MikeHoyer]

So there won't be Formula Woman in 2005? Nooooooo.....

[Paul Dishman]

Originally Posted by Winterton

Does anyone remember the great Tony Liddell? Tony was behind the original concept of the "Super Coupe Cup". Quite a few series failed to impress last year and some failed to even start.

Tony's happily retired now, I believe. He did a great job running the Super Coupe cup for years , although the original concept was invented by James Tucker ( who has gone on to develop the EERC ) and Jeff Wyatt. They got Tony to run the competition in 1995. The VW Polo G40 and Vento VR6 were run together in 1994 and Tony was employed by VW as the series co-ordinator. VW dropped the Polos and Tony , so James & Jeff got him to run the combined series of Polo G40 and Honda CRX. Over the years other redundant single make racers were added - 5 turbos, then Rover 216 gti etc.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Firstly take a pace back; then consider the problem without getting too involved in the details.

What is wrong with motorsport isn't that there are TOO MANY championships to chase, it is that there are NOT ENOUGH GOOD ONES!

Take Formula Ford; time was when there was a National Championship, coupled with three or four regional championships. Nowadays there are so many I wouldn't know where to start.

There needs to be major surgery if the patient is to be saved. Combining Championships that are failing is NOT the answer. What is needed are championships that place the emphasis on the driver and do not need a massive amount of money to stage or compete in.

[ss_collins]

hmmm series cull thread... too many series too many clubs - I'm not gonna merge them...

Y'all know I think there should be massive cull action anyway

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

What is wrong with motorsport isn't that there are TOO MANY championships to chase, it is that there are NOT ENOUGH GOOD ONES!

Take Formula Ford; time was when there was a National Championship, coupled with three or four regional championships. Nowadays there are so many I wouldn't know where to start.

I don't think FF1600 is a very good example really Steve: we have five regional championships in the UK, plus Classic and Historic which are age-based. OK, on top of that you have Zetec - National and Clubmans - but it is fairly easy to follow I think.

[Winterton]

It is the saloons and touring cars that are the problem.

[R59]

I agree. To many saloons championships which have a great diversity of cars, specifications, and therefore speeds.

What is lacking is a proper big banger series.

There are a number of very good 'mildly modified' championships, such as Stock/Hot Hatches, moving up to Modified Production Saloons, which then fragments, but leaps dramatically to the likes of the regional Sports/GT championships where anything goes.

Touring Cars are out of reach of the mortal nowadays.

Then there are plethora of one-make championships. Some for one make like the BMW series' (note plural), Ford Saloons, etc.. and then there are the one-make-one-model championships, which should have a finite life before being dispatched to the 'bucket' series which is known as 'SuperCoupe Cup', and not allowed to linger on and on forever and a day.

Mini's could pose a problem. The Mini Se7en Club is very well supported, with the jewel in the crown as the Mini Miglia series, probably the most successful modified and closely fought series there is. The Mighty Mini's arrived, and although as slow as paint drying, they have proven to be successful, and spawned offspring with more, and now more modified variants.

I could go on, and on, and get nowhere.

Most championships can justify their own existence via their following in terms of competitors.

However, if the sport is to move forwards, and become halt the decline as we see it, it needs to be leaner and meaner. The justification for existence has to be based on the number of bums in seats in the grandstand, and so far, much of what we do has to be for the chop.

If you consider that this sport is for the entertainment of others, not just the nuts behind the wheel, then we have to adopt draconian measures.

And if that means that even FF has to be chopped and rationalised into a saleable product, then so be it.(sorry Ian)

The answer is in the blue book for formulae.

Championships - circuit/regional/national.

Rob.

[Ian Sowman]

FF1600 is a whole lot more saleable than most other things. What championship is it that attracts most people to Combe month in, month out?

[R59]

The whole package I'd say! Castle Combe have it cracked in my opinion.

A very good FF series, a very good Saloon Car series, and a good GT series, that form the underpinning of most race meetings at Combe.

That has built a good motorsport following in the southwest.

Rob.

[davemullender]

Rob,

I was kinda with you up to this point (despite driving a saloon car)
...

Originally Posted by racing59

The justification for existence has to be based on the number of bums in seats in the grandstand, and so far, much of what we do has to be for the chop.

If you consider that this sport is for the entertainment of others, not just the nuts behind the wheel, then we have to adopt draconian measures.

I'm not quite sure its as simple as bums-on-seats = success, no bums=failure, lots of factors come into play which are outside the control of both the drivers and even the series organisers when it comes to attendance. Price, Advertising, what else is on the bill, dates, locations all have nothing to do with whether a series is 'good and valid' but everything to do with warm grandstand seats.

Which kind of brings me onto another question which is what is a 'good and valid' series, some possible definitions of good:-

A championship which pushes the envelope technically
A championship with close racing
A championship which is friendly and enjoyable to race in
A championship which is exciting to watch
A championship which welcomes new drivers
A championship which doesn't involve huge budgets
A championship which does involve huge budgets

and so it goes on, different drivers, different audiences, different marshalls will all have a different opinion of what makes their own personal 'good' championship. For instance decide whether you think F1 is 'good' and then look at the list and see how few of those criteria apply.

Variety, as they say, is the spice of life. If 20odd drivers want to go out and enjoy their racing at a weekend isn't this what we're all in it for?

Personally how many people turn up to watch isn't a primary concern for me *as long as other competitors aren't having to financially prop up what is inherently an insolvent race*. What does worry me is when not a lot of drivers turn up, as thats a clear indication that the race isn't offering what the drivers want (whatever that may be).

Just my 2p and a pack of chewing-gum anyhow



Dave

[davemullender]

Eek, thats a long post considering its only my 2nd in 6 months

Note to self: Reduce post-size down and increase post volume

[R59]

Personally how many people turn up to watch isn't a primary concern for me *as long as other competitors aren't having to financially prop up what is inherently an insolvent race*. What does worry me is when not a lot of drivers turn up, as thats a clear indication that the race isn't offering what the drivers want (whatever that may be).

That's the point.

We (the undersigned) are in general, propping up the insolvent race series.

That is why our entry fees are so high, that is why we PAY to race.

A championship which pushes the envelope technically
A championship with close racing
A championship which is friendly and enjoyable to race in
A championship which is exciting to watch
A championship which welcomes new drivers
A championship which doesn't involve huge budgets
A championship which does involve huge budgets

Follow the above rules for putting bums on seats. Fill the grandstands, give the gate money to the organising club, and we're well on the way to giving the people who put on the entertainment a share of the purse. Even if it's only £50 to cover (some of)your petrol money to get there. That's a start.

We've had this discussion on here more than once, and the concensus as I see it is that the organising club should get the gate money, not the circuit as is currently the way. That way, the club will be more inclined to put on racing, or a package of racing, that attracts the spectators, which in turn leads to more revenue, and that can be spent on greater promotion of the events, etc.etc.etc... The circuit may need to charge more for the hire of the circuit, but then again, if IT provides the catering facilities (at reasonable cost to the public), then it will win by the fact that they will sell more food/drink etc.. which has a high profit margin.

I've always maintained that when you only charge a pound per head, or a fiver per car, and promote it in the media, you'll fill the place up. You can then charge a couple of quid for the grandstand (which will be full!), and make up your money on the catering / merchandising. It's chicken and egg, but to get the chickens to lay eggs you have to feed them. To get more eggs you need more chickens, make it a good day out, and they will come.

So far, Castle Combe have got it right with their package of FF, Saloons, & GT's where local people can come and watch close exciting racing from local people. The competitors, on the whole, are a friendly bunch (there are a few fractious relationships, but aren't there in every series!), and it's a good atmosphere.

Rockingham have it. They have made the ASCAR/Days of Thunder/SCSA thing a big family day out, with lots of media coverage, and on the day razzamataz. It works, don't knock it!

Now it's for the powers that be to sort it out.

Rob.

[Paul V]

O/T - Any chance of bringing the Belmont along to Combe for a outing in the GTs?

[R59]

It's on the list of things to do! Don't worry.
Have the dates been released yet?

Rob.

[Paul V]

Try
http://www.racecar.co.uk/cc/events.asp

[MGDavid]

How DO we compare now, with the 'good old days' ?
I was clearing out some old stuff last night and fell upon the programme for BARC Thruxton May bank holiday 1982 meeting. There were only 8 races, and 5 of them had a grid of less than 18 ! The (only) feature race was the Atlantic historic GTs with 37 entries. All looks a bit thin to me - wonder what the turnstile figure was that day?
I offer no answers but perhaps food for thought?

[Eddy V]

You are all right, but too few championships is not the way to go either. In Belgium they got rid over the years off the "obsolete" championships (the reason I had to give up racing); what happened was that we do NOT have a Formule Ford championship (sob) anymore, or a decent saloon championship or some smaller doesn't-matter-what thing. Oh, we have Belcar! Yeah okay, if you are a little bid rich. Best thing is to amalgamate some of the look-alike races and leave the others like they are, even if they have low key entries. And yes, spectators pay far too much. 10 Pound is what they pay for a weekend in Belgium. But, at least in the UK you STILL HAVE real racing!

[gixxer]

Rob,would be great addition to the combe gt's you may even give nigel mustell a run for his money in the nissan skyline!!

Give us something new to cheer on!!

[Andrew Hornsey]

I think that one of the big problems is manufacturers. If, for example, Ford decided to run a championship for the Ford Ka, what can be done to stop them?

The MSA is under pressure, because if they say no, they are liable for an investigation into anti competition (No pun intended), and the EU authorities are keen to get involved in this sort of thing. Could the MSA affoard a multi million dollar lawsuit?

I do not see an easy answer to this, other than a carefully orchistrated plan by the clubs and competitors - if a club does not want to run a championship, or if the competitors don't subscribe to it, the manufacture will almost certainly have problems internally justifying the cost of setting up and promoting the series.

[Mackmot]

The way I see it the MSA have to protect open racing because one make series where the car and all the parts must be bought from certain retailers etc are contravening the EU competition laws.

Its particularly important in single seaters where the ladder to F1 is completely blurred.

All one make series should be banned unless organised by an owners club who wish to race their road derived cars.


I recently wrote a letter to Rt Hon Patricia Hewitt regarding the government's position with the Motorsport Panel Competitiveness report. I sent this to the MIA first to see their position and I think it has pricked up some ears. They have given me their support so I will be sending it next week. Hopefully we will be able to make the industry reform and rationalise.

[R59]

Originally Posted by gixxer

Rob,would be great addition to the combe gt's you may even give nigel mustell a run for his money in the nissan skyline!!

Give us something new to cheer on!!

There are two dates where I could possibly make an entry for the GT's at Combe. April 30th, and August 6th.

The April date depends on the season opener, and if anything breaks on the car.

The August date depends on how well I do at Lydden on 21st May, because I may have "unfinished business" to attend to!

Is ol' Mustill still running that Skyline? Or is it a new(er) one? I seem to remember something to do with Brian Chatfield and that Skyline in the hazy days gone by.

More pressing things to attend to at present. Contract negotiations with F1 team to get Son (b. 12/Feb/05 ) on their driver development program.

Rob.

[flagwaver]

Mackmot I am not a lawyer but I do not see how one make series contravine the law. If you take what you are saying to its conclusion then only having one governing body is also unlawful.