Two litre touring cars to return to Australia in 2009???

[the interpreter]

As revealed exclusively in Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper today (Friday), Subaru Australia has publicly revealed that major national importers are discussing a new two litre touring car championship for Australia. This is being promoted because there is a no high profile championship presently available to manufacturers to compete in.
Further to the Daily Telegraph's report, it can also be revealed exclusively here that the category being considered is the international FIA Super 2000 rules (with national homologation cars accepted). This is based on the successful model used in Britain, Sweden and Denmark.

[RS500]

sounds interesting, would be great to see if it could take off only time will tell if this is going to be a popular move

[pete55]

The 2 Litre cars are now more relevant in today's society than they were last time they ran here. If more than a couple of Manufacturers become involved then watch out V8 Supercars. Many more young people drive these cars now than V8 Holden and Fords.

[iconic]

that's good! the btcc is booming once again with the rule change to s2000

bmw 320 - wtcc
bmw 1 series - btcc
seat leon - wtcc
chevy lacetti - wtcc
honda accord euro - wtcc/stcc
honda civic type r - btcc
audi a4 - stcc
volvo s60 - stcc
alfa 156 - wtcc
peugeot 407 - wtcc 2005/dtc
vauxell vectra - btcc
ford focus - wtcc 2005

that's all i can think of which are current s2000 cars.. not many that are that relevant for australia

[Mickcals]

I think a 2 Litre category would be very popular - maybe VESA should implentment this new category into the current V8SC category and run both series side by side rather than up against each other.

Imagine the record crowds - people there to watch the V8s and the 2 Litres.
Also it will give the drivers a chance to race in both series

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Mickcals

I think a 2 Litre category would be very popular - maybe VESA should implentment this new category into the current V8SC category and run both series side by side rather than up against each other.

Imagine the record crowds - people there to watch the V8s and the 2 Litres.
Also it will give the drivers a chance to race in both series

Yes, the two series compeating for the same audience is not ideal, but if they can coexist it would be ideal

iconic, I took the liberty to update your list with the ones I could think of right away:

bmw 320 - wtcc
bmw 1 series - btcc
seat leon - wtcc
chevy lacetti - wtcc
honda accord euro - wtcc/stcc
honda civic type r - btcc
audi a4 - stcc
volvo s60 - stcc
alfa 156 - wtcc
peugeot 407 - stcc
vauxell vectra - btcc
ford focus - stcc
mercedes c-class - stcc
renault megane - dtc
citroën xsara - dtc
toyota corolla - procar
proton impian - atcc (asian)

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by iconic

that's good! the btcc is booming once again with the rule change to s2000

bmw 320 - wtcc
bmw 1 series - btcc
seat leon - wtcc
chevy lacetti - wtcc
honda accord euro - wtcc/stcc
honda civic type r - btcc
audi a4 - stcc
volvo s60 - stcc
alfa 156 - wtcc
peugeot 407 - wtcc 2005/dtc
vauxell vectra - btcc
ford focus - wtcc 2005

that's all i can think of which are current s2000 cars.. not many that are that relevant for australia

10 of the 12 are sold in Australia and you don't think it's relevant?!?

[FIRE]

Opel (Holden) Astra (STCC)


Would be great to have a WTCC round in Australia.

[GTRMagic]

Mr Kershler wrote the artle on P15 of the Carsguide section in between scribing his story about the Premier League bowls on P88 of the same paper...

.. anyhow... what has been reported is a 'wish' of Mr Senior of Subaru, suggesting that this category would be the underling to V8Supercars, a support act, and not the headline.

In all seriousness, would a manufacturer plough money into a non headline series, for a similar running cost to operate a V8Supercar? And does this idea of a series for 2 litre cars then preclude participation from Holden and Ford as their family inheritance is being spent on the main series instead?

I think this story might be better filed in the "wish list" filing cabinet rather than on the 'gunna happen' pile

Unfortunately

[Jimmy Magnusson]

They were looking at Sandown I believe, but wasn't Sandown going into retirement yes?

[SSbaby]

Are people saying the inception of a 2.0L category is great because:

- of comments in other threads, doubting Ford's long term viability as a manufacturer in this country?
- or do people want other makers involved to inject more $$$ into the sport?
- or are people just sick of V8SC and want something different?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Mickcals

I think a 2 Litre category would be very popular - maybe VESA should implentment this new category into the current V8SC category and run both series side by side rather than up against each other.

Imagine the record crowds - people there to watch the V8s and the 2 Litres.
Also it will give the drivers a chance to race in both series

Optimistic given the treatment by VESA of ALL manufacturers other than Holden & Ford - would other manufacturers feel comfortable with the Coch0 mafia?

A positive may be the role of the former 2 litre CEO who now runs
V8 Supercars.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Mr Kershler wrote the artle on P15 of the Carsguide section in between scribing his story about the Premier League bowls on P88 of the same paper...

.. anyhow... what has been reported is a 'wish' of Mr Senior of Subaru, suggesting that this category would be the underling to V8Supercars, a support act, and not the headline.

In all seriousness, would a manufacturer plough money into a non headline series, for a similar running cost to operate a V8Supercar? And does this idea of a series for 2 litre cars then preclude participation from Holden and Ford as their family inheritance is being spent on the main series instead?

I think this story might be better filed in the "wish list" filing cabinet rather than on the 'gunna happen' pile

Unfortunately

Well, a V8SC is a tad more expensive isn't it? And I am sure that there is a lot of manufacterors that would rather get involved in the ASTC (I'll call it that because ATCC is already taken!). Setting up a team in a national S2000 series is quite easy as you don't usually have one/two teams dominating the whole thing in big numbers. WTCC is drawing few manufacterors - in reality only BMW, Seat and Chevy - who all field a lot of cars that take all the points, discouraging new manu's to enter. Same applies for V8 Supercars: Ford and Holden both have a lot of cars out there and as a new manufacteror the risk to get swamped is quite large. Secondly, V8 Supercars doesn't seem to friendly about new manufacterors entering - Seat in the series? I think V8 fans disapporve!
However, if we look at say BTCC, STCC, DTC and so on are all fairly "spread out" championships with lots of small indie teams which a new works team most likely outpreform much easier, and thus get more exposure. If you're on the top you'll be seen - if you're on TV that is! How about broadcasting the race as a buildup to the V8's? 50km isn't a long race!
Lastly, not all manufacterors have a big chunky V8 sedan in their lineup (well almost none of them!), and even if they do they might want to sell shopping cars (which is what s2000 touring cars is now days)!

Just my 2 cents

[Buckshot]

I'd love to see more manufacturer backed racing in this country but in all reality I just can't see it happenning. They'd be better off trying to all get behind GT Performance and raising the profile of that series somewhat.

There are far too many usless categories in this country diluting the pool as it is.

[Notso Swift]

I pray for this sort of thing to happen, but since I don't believe in an interventionist god...

[lookleft]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Are people saying the inception of a 2.0L category is great because:

- of comments in other threads, doubting Ford's long term viability as a manufacturer in this country?

No

Originally Posted by SSbaby

- or do people want other makers involved to inject more $$$ into the sport?

Yes

Originally Posted by SSbaby

- or are people just sick of V8SC and want something different?

Hell yes!

As for the cost, well I am staggered at some of the build / run costs that are freely discussed for V8. A fair lashing of bull**** IMHO, generate a buzz when you say a $400,000 for a silhouette car. These things live for ever (just ask Cam McConville), sure there will be pain as some players ARE heavily invested but in general??

The main issue is to get more manufactures in, if Ford sponsor 4 cars, Holden 4, Toyota 4, BMW 4 and a couple of 2 car manufacture supported cars plus the "non-factory" cars you have a much more sustainable industry.

Hard to spot the losers really ...... oh yeah, what was a L1 worth

It will happen, when is the question.

[v8race1]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Are people saying the inception of a 2.0L category is great because:

- of comments in other threads, doubting Ford's long term viability as a manufacturer in this country?
- or do people want other makers involved to inject more $$$ into the sport?
- or are people just sick of V8SC and want something different?

Me personally...All of the above and more....!

Having read the comments in the courier mail this morning it seems that Mr Senior has asked around and has been given a vote of confidence by other manufactures wishing to return and or remain in motorsport.

I also wish to see a return but not to the detriment of the classes we already have. Maybe a series whereby the 2ltr's have a very good support catorgory including all those shuned by tc & co.....opening another avenue for up and comers to showcase themselves, furthering oversea opportunities, instead of using the v8's as their motorsport benchmark....

I certainly think a seperate series could survive and be supported without becoming a undercard...however it's all wishful thinking at this stage.

Lets see how popular the Bathurst 12hr is at easter to guage if a seperate series could survive...

[iconic]

Originally Posted by Chucky

10 of the 12 are sold in Australia and you don't think it's relevant?!?

i mean those models that will still be sold in australia in 2009 - end of product cycle ect.

out of the list there are only 6 solid full works that i am aware of

bmw 320
seat leon
chevy lacetti
audi a4
vauxell vectra
proton... (a disgrace in btcc)

alfa is going GT racing
honda don't seem to be interested as with peugeot

[Robert Ryan]

I also wish to see a return but not to the detriment of the classes we already have

There are far too many useless categories in this country diluting the pool as it is.

Those two sentences are the crux of the matter for me. Why doesn't Subaru support what is already available? What other manufacturer is going to commit?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

What other manufacturer is going to commit?

I think the results of the following point will see how such a category develops.

Originally Posted by the interpreter

Subaru Australia has publicly revealed that major national importers are discussing a new two litre touring car championship for Australia.

If manufactures commit then this will be a great addition to Australian motorsport.

[mountainstar]

Can you imagine a 260 hp 2 liter weezing up mountain straight.

We've been down this road before, forget it.

S2000 is now running at about 4 million euro per car per season.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Those two sentences are the crux of the matter for me. Why doesn't Subaru support what is already available? What other manufacturer is going to commit?

Because what is available is a closed shop, Ford and Holden, that is it no one else can get a start, Chrysler is the only manufacture in the world that could fashion a car with the same fundamental spec, but they wouldn't be allowed to race anyway. The fact is the engine technology is so far behind the times and so irrelevant to modern vehicles that even one of the protagonists have abandoned it in their production models.
BTW Subaru do support other classes available

iconic, Honda are in just not at the WTCC level, they have S2000 in the BTCC now. Likewise Peugeot,they are in Swedish, Danish and French National series. Also Volvo in semi-works
So the only one not in the Aus market is Seat.

Can you imagine a 260 hp 2 liter weezing up mountain straight.
We've been down this road before, forget it.
S2000 is now running at about 4 million euro per car per season.

That is for a WTCC program over 4 continents at the maximum level. (ie BMW) Volvo spent less than that on 3 cars 2 years ago.
And at the front of the field the old 2 litre cars were some of the best racing ever seen at Bathurst, bar none.

[cptkablamo]

I would love to see a return to S2000 racing in Australia...But what really worries me is not the cost but realistically how much money is left in Australia to put into motor racing in Oz...
The cars are there and I suspect there will be quite a few manufacturers that would enter it at the start, but could the independants be wooed over from other areas...
then what happens to the other motorsport catagories...in a dream life, the others would reevaluate to create real amature and feeder motorsport ladder in Australia...
And I agree that V8 supercar tech is ancient (not so much ancient as useless platform of technology and marketing for most other manufacturers) plus I am not sure that V8SC wants other manufacturers...kinda ruins the whole Ford v Holden thing they have going...so if others want to compete in Touring Cars, this would make the most sense.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I am sure that there is a lot of manufacterors that would rather get involved in the ASTC (I'll call it that because ATCC is already taken!).

That didn't stop Asia using ATCC, even though Australia has been using the 'ATCC' tag since 1960.......


Interesting that it is Subaru seemingly leading the charge. Do they even sell a car suitable for Super 2000?

[Mark Webber]

bring it on and sell to TEN as they are the home of motosport