[BTCC] 2024 BTCC - Croft Rds. 16/17/18

[SSmith]

The BTCC returns this weekend at Croft!

Can Jake Hill extend his championship lead, or can Ingram and Sutton fight back? Will Croft revert back to being a RWD track, or will the recent FWD successes continue?

I'm most looking forward to the CTCRC Pre-66 Touring Cars. Got to see them race in person at Super Touring Power 2 last month, and if they can attract a field of similar calibre for Croft then it will be fantastic. Their appearances as part of the streamed BARC meetings are also good to watch.

Timetable

Noticeboard

TSL Timing

Entry List [TBA]

Qualifying - YouTube - Saturday 15:00 - 15:55
Races - ITV4 - Sunday 12:05; 14:45; 17:00

ITV4 on air from 11:15 - 18:30. All being well there should be 9 televised races - 3x BTCC, 2x CTCRC Pre-66, 2x PCCGB, 1x Porsche Sprint Challenge, 1x MINI JCW

[coffinpilot]

Really looking forward to the Pre-66 races. I read in Autosport that the grid will include Max Chilton in a Cortina with Team Dynamics, but because it's over subscribed Matt Neal couldn't get an entry for himself in another Cortina.

I think they'll be the best of the weekend. I've seen the Historics almost every year at Croft in their retro festival meeting. Best place to watch them is Sunny, the way they drift through In and Out is bloomin mesmerising!

[ScottS]

As much as I'm looking forward to this one I have concerns at how well this meeting will go for the touring cars in particular.

Clervaux:

You've either got cars running through its gravel trap and out the other side bringing the gravel trap onto the race track. Or, cars getting stuck in it's gravel trap which often brings out regular safety cars. Although saying that, in the recent TCR meeting, they do have a telehandler by that corner and they were making short shift of live snatches during the racing. So hopefully that carries over into this BTCC event.

Another thing to note here is if a car does make it to the tyre stacks, this regularly involves the track workers jumping into action to do barrier repairs which can lead to long periods of safety car action or delay's to the following race starting.

The chicane, aptly named Chicane:

I can see alot of issues happening here and alot of "grey areas" being discussed. Are we going to have more controversy when it comes to cutting the chicane and who should be where out of the other side much like we have had at Thruxton and Oulton Park? This sort of issue seems to be something TOCA are really struggling to police consistently. At what point does cutting it to maintain position turn into cutting it to avoid a collision?

Also at this part of the track we have Tim Harvey's favourite thing in the world and that is tyre stacks. I'm still surprised to this day that with all the brain power in the world, tyre stacks are still the chosen thing to prevent corner cutting. We have seen how in the past, small mistakes have turned into big money bills that some teams can ill afford. Not only that, but if they are tapped hard enough to move them the safety car has to then come out to keep putting them back into position.

The last point on this corner is we now have this bodywork rule. Is this going to be another meeting where the talking point will be how <insert a front running driver here> clipped the tyre stack, dislodged a small bit of insignificant bit of bodywork which ruined there race because they had to pit to get it removed.

Jim Clark Esses:

As above really when it comes to the tyre stacks. Less so the big damage but more so the small damage and the new bodywork rule potentially coming into play here.

The 2nd part of the esses also invites people to stray over the white line on corner exit. It's another track where I believe the track limits are monitored by a marshall rather than a camera and sensor setup. Even then, the marshall is quite some distance away due to the nature of the corner. Is this going to be another event where it's pot luck whether you are pinged for track limits?

Lastly the hairpin which also seems to be aptly named, Hairpin:

With how wide touring cars are and this track not growing anytime soon. This is another corner which often causes trouble. More so now than ever before with this bodywork rule which has crept in. How inviting would it be for someone to stick their nose of their car down the rear quarter of the car in front to dislodge a piece of bodywork which means a 100% trip to the pits. This could be far easier to do than to actually put an overtake on the car in front if the running is super close.

For me I just think that the BTCC cars have grown a bit too much for this track. Also, with the various grey areas that have been uncovered this year with how close the racing has got, I feel like the conversation could be dominated by stewards decisions rather than by how good the racing was.

If I was in any of the teams shoes, I'd either use 2 screws in any of the extended arches to make sure they fly off instantly when touched, or 200 screws to make sure there is no chance of them coming adrift.

[MarcusH26]

Guessing just the 20 for BTCC, no late deals to get the fourth Beemer on the grid to help Jake's title push out?

[coffinpilot]

Originally Posted by ScottS

As much as I'm looking forward to this one I have concerns at how well this meeting will go for the touring cars in particular.

Clervaux:

You've either got cars running through its gravel trap and out the other side bringing the gravel trap onto the race track. Or, cars getting stuck in it's gravel trap which often brings out regular safety cars. Although saying that, in the recent TCR meeting, they do have a telehandler by that corner and they were making short shift of live snatches during the racing. So hopefully that carries over into this BTCC event.

Another thing to note here is if a car does make it to the tyre stacks, this regularly involves the track workers jumping into action to do barrier repairs which can lead to long periods of safety car action or delay's to the following race starting.

The chicane, aptly named Chicane:

I can see alot of issues happening here and alot of "grey areas" being discussed. Are we going to have more controversy when it comes to cutting the chicane and who should be where out of the other side much like we have had at Thruxton and Oulton Park? This sort of issue seems to be something TOCA are really struggling to police consistently. At what point does cutting it to maintain position turn into cutting it to avoid a collision?

Also at this part of the track we have Tim Harvey's favourite thing in the world and that is tyre stacks. I'm still surprised to this day that with all the brain power in the world, tyre stacks are still the chosen thing to prevent corner cutting. We have seen how in the past, small mistakes have turned into big money bills that some teams can ill afford. Not only that, but if they are tapped hard enough to move them the safety car has to then come out to keep putting them back into position.

The last point on this corner is we now have this bodywork rule. Is this going to be another meeting where the talking point will be how <insert a front running driver here> clipped the tyre stack, dislodged a small bit of insignificant bit of bodywork which ruined there race because they had to pit to get it removed.

Jim Clark Esses:

As above really when it comes to the tyre stacks. Less so the big damage but more so the small damage and the new bodywork rule potentially coming into play here.

The 2nd part of the esses also invites people to stray over the white line on corner exit. It's another track where I believe the track limits are monitored by a marshall rather than a camera and sensor setup. Even then, the marshall is quite some distance away due to the nature of the corner. Is this going to be another event where it's pot luck whether you are pinged for track limits?

Lastly the hairpin which also seems to be aptly named, Hairpin:

With how wide touring cars are and this track not growing anytime soon. This is another corner which often causes trouble. More so now than ever before with this bodywork rule which has crept in. How inviting would it be for someone to stick their nose of their car down the rear quarter of the car in front to dislodge a piece of bodywork which means a 100% trip to the pits. This could be far easier to do than to actually put an overtake on the car in front if the running is super close.

For me I just think that the BTCC cars have grown a bit too much for this track. Also, with the various grey areas that have been uncovered this year with how close the racing has got, I feel like the conversation could be dominated by stewards decisions rather than by how good the racing was.

If I was in any of the teams shoes, I'd either use 2 screws in any of the extended arches to make sure they fly off instantly when touched, or 200 screws to make sure there is no chance of them coming adrift.

The turn 1 live snatch at Croft is licenced for all racing this weekend - it's not licenced for single seaters, but F4 isn't there.

Cameras. Croft had to shell out for the TOCA light boards, the rumours being Gow told them if they didn't, they'd lose the round - personally I don't believe that was really the case that they'd lose it - but the cost of cameras or pads, fine for MSV if they want, but it worked with human eyes last weekend for TCR, in terrible conditions, especially the extra turn 1 sets of eyes after the kerb was broken on Saturday.

It'll be the same old Croft as it has been since 1997, less refined than the big tracks.

If you bin it off then Knockhill would have to go as well. They could be replaced by two extra Silverstone rounds where the Int and GP layouts are used - the cars will be miles apart then, so no worries of any close racing.

Those concerns are legit for Brit GT (which obviously couldn't go back there) but for BTCC? There has to be a bit of 'get on with it.'

I agree on the stacks on one hand, and I'm on the side of Tingram to an extent with Thruxton, but this is BTCC remember. Remove the stacks and some drivers will take the XXXX. More of a worry at Croft is the floppy at turn one, that thing gets enough air at the start of every race I'm surprised it hasn't plonked someone on the head in the little lego grandstand!

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

Croft had to shell out for the TOCA light boards, the rumours being Gow told them if they didn't, they'd lose the round

nothing to do with btcc or gow
its a motorsport uk requirement for all fia grade 3 circuits.

https://www.barc.net/barc-to-install...rt-uk-rollout/

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

nothing to do with btcc or gow
its a motorsport uk requirement for all fia grade 3 circuits.

https://www.barc.net/barc-to-install...rt-uk-rollout/

You are just allowing facts to get in the way of a good yarn!

[SSmith]

https://www.barc.net/wp-content/uplo...d-24-07-24.pdf

Entry List

BTCC - 20

PCCGB - 22 (11 Pro, 9 Pro-Am, 2 Am)
Regular grid. No Hosking, but Paul continues.

Porsche Sprint Challenge - 23
Joe Marshall joins with Rob Boston Racing in RS Pro

MINI JCW - 18 (12 JCW, 6 Sport)
Regular grid minus Hammond. Stephen Harrison in the guest car

CTCRC Pre-66 - 32
What a great grid! Sam Tordoff, Max Chilton, Nick Swift, Grant Williams and Guy Smith are the headline names, but a real array of really quick historics racers.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by SSmith

https://www.barc.net/wp-content/uplo...d-24-07-24.pdf

Entry List

BTCC - 20

PCCGB - 22 (11 Pro, 9 Pro-Am, 2 Am)
Regular grid. No Hosking, but Paul continues.

Porsche Sprint Challenge - 23
Joe Marshall joins with Rob Boston Racing in RS Pro

MINI JCW - 18 (12 JCW, 6 Sport)
Regular grid minus Hammond. Stephen Harrison in the guest car

CTCRC Pre-66 - 32
What a great grid! Sam Tordoff, Max Chilton, Nick Swift, Grant Williams and Guy Smith are the headline names, but a real array of really quick historics racers.

I hope the 3 CTCRC races are televised.

[SV8Predator]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I hope the 3 CTCRC races are televised.

Well, the Saturday race won't be televised, but on Sunday the ITV4 transmission times are 11:15-18:30, so with the Pre-66 third race scheduled to start at 17:40, that should be on the TV.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I hope the 3 CTCRC races are televised.

I somehow doubt that all three will be; one takes place on Saturday, whilst the third race starts at 17:40 immediately after the last BTCC race and the transmission is stated to end at 18:30. That leaves hardly any time for the talking heads to analyse the day's events let alone the third race.

Like yourself, I would like to see all the races, but I'm prepared to be desperately disappointed.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I hope the 3 CTCRC races are televised.

Best we can do is twelve Porsche races

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by SSmith

CTCRC Pre-66 - 32
What a great grid! Sam Tordoff, Max Chilton, Nick Swift, Grant Williams and Guy Smith are the headline names, but a real array of really quick historics racers.

Adam Morgan's dad Russell at number 33 and I also see ex-Fiesta racer Michael Cullen and former Clio Cup drivers James Dorlin and Barry Sime too.

[pimmy]

And former Group A racer, Alan Greenhalgh, in his big Falcon.

[coppice]

I wonder if it ever occurs to critics of circuits like Croft and Oulton Park that any problem about accommodating cars is down to the fact that for reasons best known to the manufacturers and organisers , cars have grown obscenely large and heavy ? And instead of bleating about how the tracks they condescend to visit once a year should spend scores of millions to accommodate their obese cars they might , y'know, make smaller ones ?

[antnee]

Originally Posted by coppice

I wonder if it ever occurs to critics of circuits like Croft and Oulton Park that any problem about accommodating cars is down to the fact that for reasons best known to the manufacturers and organisers , cars have grown obscenely large and heavy ? And instead of bleating about how the tracks they condescend to visit once a year should spend scores of millions to accommodate their obese cars they might , y'know, make smaller ones ?

Hope that is a tongue in cheek comment.....

Cars are the sized due to crash structures, interior space demands, equipment demands, stability/handling demands, etc. Not going to change billions (maybe trillion) worth of an industry due to a few blokes in blighty are upset that the racing isn't like it used to be on their old circuits.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by coppice

I wonder if it ever occurs to critics of circuits like Croft and Oulton Park that any problem about accommodating cars is down to the fact that for reasons best known to the manufacturers and organisers , cars have grown obscenely large and heavy ? And instead of bleating about how the tracks they condescend to visit once a year should spend scores of millions to accommodate their obese cars they might , y'know, make smaller ones ?

Are the cars on the grid today that much bigger than the cars of the '90s?

[SV8Predator]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Are the cars on the grid today that much bigger than the cars of the '90s?

You are just allowing facts to get in the way of a good yarn!

[coffinpilot]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

nothing to do with btcc or gow
its a motorsport uk requirement for all fia grade 3 circuits.

https://www.barc.net/barc-to-install...rt-uk-rollout/

That maybe so, but come on, we all like a good bit of rumour! But after popping into Croft this morning (I was passing in the van, they're painting kerbs and prettying the place up) I asked one of the staff members, and according to them, we're all wrong. The delay was related to the ex-wife of the local co-owner (she who leads the noise restrictions - even though she's part owner) because she didn't want the £60,000 costs.

Apparently her latest trick, that will come out soon, is her wanting the council to change the sound monitoring. Currently (I didn't know this) the volume during the week is measured by microphones, but it's 'x' volume across an hour, instead of a race weekend where there is an upper limit. I've been there for F4 private testing (which isn't that private) and wondered why they'd run 20 minutes then park for 40 mins - it's so they don't 'top up' across each hour.

The interesting thing about private testing there also, according to that bloke working there, is that the BRSCC hired the track for a day a couple of months back, to put one car out, a Fiesta Junior for someone with the name Turkington, and when the lad goosed the gearbox after an hour his Dad (Colin is his name I think?!) pulled the staff and marshalls into the garage for breakfast and an impromptu Q&A.

It does have you wondering - because the rumours have always been that the BARC money from Croft was split in favour of Thruxton - how the finances will change with this new Thruxton owner?

(I'm not some stalking saddo, I live in a village beside Croft - I'll be walking on the weekend so I'll be home when everyone is still stuck in the car parks!!)

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

That maybe so, but come on, we all like a good bit of rumour! But after popping into Croft this morning (I was passing in the van, they're painting kerbs and prettying the place up) I asked one of the staff members, and according to them, we're all wrong. The delay was related to the ex-wife of the local co-owner (she who leads the noise restrictions - even though she's part owner) because she didn't want the £60,000 costs.

She (J Shield) is still acknowledged as the Company Secretary, however she appears to have no voting powers and her, possibly, ex-partner (M Shield) has less than 50% voting powers on the circuits limited company board.

The significant power lies with BARC who are the effective owners of the circuit having purchased it in 2006 (I believe it was).

[coppice]

Originally Posted by antnee

Hope that is a tongue in cheek comment.....

Cars are the sized due to crash structures, interior space demands, equipment demands, stability/handling demands, etc. Not going to change billions (maybe trillion) worth of an industry due to a few blokes in blighty are upset that the racing isn't like it used to be on their old circuits.

That is the popular myth peddled to justify society's love of driving huge cars . But it needn't be so - there's plenty of smaller cars on the market , often excellent(Yaris GR , for example) but manufactures spaff billions on the raw materials needed to make giant cars . Which , for reasons which are utterly beyond me , some people want to impress their neighbours with.

[v8supes]

Originally Posted by coppice

I wonder if it ever occurs to critics of circuits like Croft and Oulton Park that any problem about accommodating cars is down to the fact that for reasons best known to the manufacturers and organisers , cars have grown obscenely large and heavy ? And instead of bleating about how the tracks they condescend to visit once a year should spend scores of millions to accommodate their obese cars they might , y'know, make smaller ones ?

You cant have smaller cars anymore because of modern safety features, entertainment and comfort technology and batteries.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by v8supes

You cant have smaller cars anymore because of modern safety features, entertainment and comfort technology and batteries.

Citroen Ami spec series anyone?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Citroen Ami spec series anyone?

That's a quadricycle, so has different requirements to a car.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

Currently (I didn't know this) the volume during the week is measured by microphones,

Off topic I know but whilst we are sharing stories, that reminds me of something I read some years back. Castle Coombe have similar noise issues and had microphones installed for remote monitoring. The local council were getting automated alerts at odd times when there was a sudden spike in noise levels. They sent someone to the circuits to investigate to find no cars on track and the place mostly deserted. Turned out the noise spikes were due to foxes.