Lola T360

[Dan Rear]

Was the Bailey/May/Robinson/Morrison/Bowditch T360 the one that Col has in Oz ? If so, where did the Wentz/Wella car from 75 go to? Have we been here before !!

[Chris Townsend]

Dan

The Morrison Bowditch T360 is HU5 and runs like this
1974: Nigel Clarkson also raced by Richard Scott
1975 Nick May
1976 Brian Robinson
1977 John Morrison
1978 Kevin Bowditch [big accident]
1979 Martin Mansell

The Scott/Bailey car in 1974 is a works prototype
but it's not AU1 which seems to have been the jig model.
I'm still trying to determine if the Bailey prototype had a model no
and if it was the Trimmer and King car in 1976 Indyatlantic

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Col.

Correction it is Tom Gloy .
When I see you for coffee tomorrow , I will convince you to GO FOR IT , re.the T360's.

Don't forget the ex Mallock/ David Render car , which someone suggested may be a T450.

Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

T360s as I see them:

AU1: Jig model, not raced before used by Andrew Miedecke in Aus/NZ 1977, then to John Davis 1978 for AF2

HU1: 1974: Works prototype for Richard Scott, then to Ken Bailey. Rebuilt around new tub after big accident mid season. Retained by works and next raced 1976 by Tony Trimmer in Indyatlantic. Sold from underneath Trimmer to Mike King for same series.

HU2: [The early history of this car may switch with that of HU3]
First production model, June 1974. Bill O'Connor [N.American pro series]Retained to 1976 then unknown to 1980 when raced in Can Am by Doug Moe with a Mazda 13B in it. 'The Banana Crate?' Kept by Moe at least until 1987, now being restored as single seater.

HU3: Sold with HU2, this car for Tom Klausler, but owned by O'Conner's team. 1975: O'Conner for Mike Hall

HU4: July Probably for Gary Magwood [CAN], badly damaged retained until 1976 and raced again by Magwood then [or perhaps a second hand car] Big accident. Probably scrapped.

HU5: August. Nigel Clarkson [UK] also raced by Richard Scott. 1975: Nick May. 1976: Brian Robinson. 1977: John Morrison. 1978: Kevin Bowditch. 1979: Martin Mansell

HU6: Can't find another T360 in competition apart from HU7 which is a known quantity, so don't know who this went to or if it appeared.

HU7: November. Wella for Ted Wentz, used by Wentz to Sept. 1975

The total run of T360s is 16, not including AU1 or the T362 raced by Wentz late 75 [which could be 360 HU1 with development work]

In 1975 the following appear, at present in unknown cars

Bill Scott Racing: Elliot Forbes Robinson
Bill Scott Racing: Howdy Holmes
Bill Scott Racing: Bob Young
Bill Scott Racing: Freddy Phillips
Tom Gloy
Bobby Rahal
Alan Karlberg
Pierre Phillips: Tom Weichman then Dave Walker
Tom Klausler

1976: Dan Marvin and Victor Larose appear in 360s in Canada
1978 Elkhart Lake report has Liebich in a T362! Is this the development car sold to Canada?

[Colin Haste]

Thanks for the 360 stuff Chris, Bryan has just shouted lunch which means I owe him now,
T360 AU1 I have just had a chat with Don Baker who imported the car.I have a test sheet which came from Don showing a test at Silverstone on 30/4/74 titled 360/1 driver Richard Scott the car was disassembled but the tub was not pulled apart. The car unassembled along with two unassembled tubs, relative spares and drawings were air frieghted to Australia ( Don was a flight steward for Qantas at the time) it arrived three weeks before the June Meeting at Oran Park Don And Glen Abby worked flat out to change the engine bay to suit a twin cam and have the car ready for the meeting on the 23rd June.Chris Farrel owned the car as he say's for one and a half days.(another story)it was driven for Don And Glen by Graham Lawrence NZ,and Keven Bartlet the car was finaly sold to Doug Macarthur ,Doug raced two seasons in F2 with the car.Changing the brakes to-front four pot and moving the front calipiers to the rear also a lot strenghting to the front in the area around the shocker pickup and brace.(I still race against Doug he runs an RT1 these days)in 76 the car less engine went to Andrew Miedecke who ran it in the Stuyvesant series in NZ.He also wrote and artical in racing car news Feb 77 titled "big valves V little valves-why we should have chosen Formula Pacific" refering to Australian F2.The car continued in F2 using various engines untill brought back to Formula Atlantic form for historic racing in the mid 90s.
Col

[Colin Haste]

More on 360s
H 20? is in the US owned by Cy Moreland he does not believe it has any history other than SCCA club stuff.
HU18 is also owned by CY ,this car became T361 sold first to Bruach Racing Cy describes the car as having a 460 rearend grafted to the 360 tub and some funky looking A armes.Quote.he bought the car off Carl Liebech the first US owner the car was crashed by carl before Cy bought it,as Cy is friends with both Carl and Ted Wentz I may see what other info on Lola Atlantics we may get.
Chris I wounder if this is the T362 you talk of.
Col

[Chris Townsend]

Colin

HU18: If it is ex Bruach Racing it's the Mike King car/Tony Trimmer development car from 1976 and probably the Leibich T362.
I don't know if we can definitely tie this back to the Wentz T362 yet

Chris

[Dan Rear]

Chris

Confused here, did you say only 18 T360s built, so how is there a HU18. Or is this the ex Wentz 1975 T362, slightly rebuilt for 76, and then called a T360 ? If so, did it go to Liebech later that year. If not where to ?

Btw does anyone know what happened to the ex-everyone UK car, HU5, after Martin Mansell in 1979 ? He later had a March of unknown provenance (to me at least) in the UK after this.

[Chris Townsend]

Dan

The production figure could well be wrong, it might exclude prototypes and development cars, even when they have plate numbers. This is one of those things you never trust absolutely.
Allen and I have learned this to our cost with the complex histories [aka "the mess"] that are Lola T190s and 192s where Lola were not above swapping production line cars with slightly used development models.
HU18 could be about right for the last T360 especially if they never built HU13.

Chris

[Colin Haste]

Chris & Dan
361, the info I have comes from Carl Liebech & Ted Wentz,aparently Cy Knows both.When the car was purchased from Carl Liebech Cy was told the car was first owned in the UK by Bruach racing Liebech was the first US owner he also has a build list that came with the car which goes like this.No HU1,13,19 the last 360 HU22 sold to Carl Haas 20 Feb 75. 12 cars white gelcoat 3 red 2 black 1 blue (361) he also has the Hewland # that go with chassis and dates of sale.
If you look at Auto sport 13 may 1976 there is a picture of TTrimmer in whats called the development 360 and Wentz in the new 460 a good look at the rear end shows them pretty much the same engine frame and certinly unlike a 360 engine frame the body still 360 though.
Dan, according to all I have been able to source it seems unsure if there was 16 or 19 360s.
Col

[Lola Registry]

Hi Chris; Just to update your files, I had purchased HU2 T360 earlier this year from Doug Moe. As you had indicated, Doug ran the car in the NW Can Am series with a 13B rotary motor throuhout the 80's. The recieved side pods and fenders to comply with the class. I have been told by many competitors and onlookers of the day that the car was fast and loud. The Car is in que for a total restoration after my T492 and T594. You can see pictures of what it was and now is on the Lola Registry under project files at The Lola Registry which I run. Please take a look at the site, the new Forum that we just put up and take a moment to register your Lola. Thanks Allan T. Chou

[Chris Townsend]

Colin

Many thanks. Any chance of a complete breakdown of the build list with dates of sale? I presume that they are all via Haas but the dates and colours might help eliminate some. From your message I take it that HU1 is not listed [which I take to be the Scott/Bailey car running as a development model], nor 13 [as usual with Lola] nor 19.

Does Carl Liebich have details of the other Lolas he owned apart from the T361/2? Did he own another 360 before this?

Agree with you about the rear ends of Trimmer's and Wentz's cars.

[Colin Haste]

Chris
I'm working on the list; in the meantime, some more to think about. I have been in contact with David Dettrickson in the US he has a T360 HU 15 "Pierre Phillips Motorsport, ran the Canadan Players series in 75 with Tom Weichmann.

[Colin Haste]

all
as yet I have not received a reply in regard to the list of first owners supplied with 360s in the US,nor any history on most cars tracted down it seems in the US most cars ran division and national SCCA.The SCCA dont have any records to speak of or they are unavailable and the owners of the cars are lucky if they remember the name of the previous owner,there is no sence of history its just a old race car,pitty.I have in the past tryed to get info out of Lola which has to come from there heritage site.To access this you have to pay a ridiculously high (by Australian standards) fee to join only to find out they dont know.
Chris: Allan knows David Dettrickson but I dont think he has any further info in regard to Allans Can Am car.
It gets frustrating but we plug on.
Col

[Chris Townsend]

Colin

It's very unlikely that the Lola sales list has first owners on it. What we can do, gradually, is trace back from last owner, and trace forward on colour and date. [For example, one or both of the black 360s is going to be for Elliot Forbes Robinson running with Penthouse sponsorship for Bill Scott Racing.] What colour is [was?] the Weichmann car originally?
Also, this car disappeared very early in 75 [two pro races]. I was wrong about Walker using it. That was Weichman's 460 the following year.

Finally, Lola T350s. This was the F3 version of the 360 but how many were built?
I know Robert Joubert used one in the Canadian Atlantic series, which he'd run early season in British F3. Were there ever any others?

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

Derek

Thanks, that's interesting. Most of the earlier Lola build records just show the agency that sold the car and for the US and Canada most cars went through Haas at that time, so I was figuring that what we see for the 360s would simply have a date of sale, Haas as consignee and a colour.

Chris

[gfm]

I enjoyed a brief encounter as an owner of a T460. I bought it off Brian Robinson in 77 and it had a fruity Richardson BDX and triangular side tanks. We did a Shellsport race at Mallory before selling to Mike Gue. I heard the new owner piled it up first test outing.
We collected Silverstone's fastest lap of the year in it ahead of Kim Mather, so it wasn't slow.
Have we a picture ... already posted in the Mallory Park Hairpin thing.
Was it a 460 or a 360 with some mods? We won the British SuperVW series in a 76 362 though I'm not sure of it's model number. We do have a piccy of that, at Zandvoort, the day my mechanic broke both his legs ...

[gfm]

Sorry, I see it now in an earlier submission - it was a 360 HU5, 'xuse me.

[Smellybeard]

I do remember a 360 racing in Ireland. Greenan had a T360 which went to Pat Murphy whoraced it in the dying days of Irish FA. I dont know where it went after. Body was initialy orange, later red, white and mid blue.

Dave.

[Richard Young]

It's probably not relevant, but there's one 360 still resident in the emerald Isle, property (now) of Chris Fair and in bits pending restoration. It came here from Scotland where it had been fitted (very badly) with a Weslake V6 ( and bent in the middle over bumps !). Robert McGimpsey ran it on a few hills but things kept breaking, none too surprisingly, and it moved to present owner whose plans for it are uncertain. Don't know the provenance, but the Scottish connection might help.....

[Dan Rear]

John/gfm, I remember your 1976 FSV Lola, a T362 I think. Did you get out much in Britain that year, or just in Europe, which I belive was still pretty strong FSV-wise in those days. Good picture (colour) of it on the front of MN early that year, at the 'Ring maybe, did you win there at that meeting???

Richard, i wonder if the Irish T360 is the ex-May/Robinson/gfm/Bowditch/Mansell car. Its the only T360 I can think stayed for long over here. Can you help here Chris ??

[Chris Townsend]

The Irish 360 could be HU5 [John's old car] or maybe the remains of HU7 [Wentz's original car]. Also, we don't know for sure what happened to the original Scott/Bailey car from 1974, which - if it wasn't the car now known as AU1 - doesn't appear after mid 74

Chris

[Smellybeard]

Lamb did paint the car green. I know naught what it was before...

The orange T360 was definitly a T360. It was unused for a long time before Murphy got it. My Dad considered buying it at the time but went instad for a Modus.

The Robert McGimpsey Lola-WeslakeV6 was somthing different - not a 360/460 thing. The tub was quite different. It reminded me more of a T330ish thing (but F2 sized).

Dave.

[Bryan Miller]

Chris.

We have already decided AU-1 was in OZ the same weekend the Scott/Bailey car was in use in the U.K.
So that leaves it free over in your neck of the woods to get up to all sorts of mischief.

Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

Dan

I agree. ATS only ever entered one car, shared between Kozarowitzky, Arpianen and Wentz.
Roland Binder had one.
Mallock stuffs one and gets it replaced. This might well be HU3 replacing HU1 except it doesn't satisfy the provenance for the Render car as being ex Mallock-Russell. [Which HU1 replacing HU3 does].

The T362 is T360 - HU18 which Wentz took on in Sept 75 after Roy Baker threw HU7 at the Oulton Park banks in testing. Used by Trimmer early 76 then to Mike King, both in Indyatlantic, then to Carl Liebich in Canada and still there.

Chris