Mercedes F3 engine pics & details?.....

[knighty]

Can someone shed a little light on this new Mercedes F3 engine that is currently doing the business on the UK scene.......I heard somewhere is has a really low centre of gravity, low ancillaries, and is about 20Kg lighter than a honda???.....is the power comparable to a honda or not?.....dunno how true all that is.......does anyone have any pictures of it?......who designed and developed it?......Ilmor???......

[macsport]

On the F3 website there is a media file download available on the cars, which gives details on the Mugen Honda and the Mercedes engines (Page 5)
Click Here - http://www.fota.co.uk/downloads.php?event=2&season=2005
The file is called 'The Cars' and is a pdf (adbobe Acrobat) file.
Hope this helps

[strider]

That file is quite interesting, macsport, but not quite the information knighty was after, I think. Mercedes have given a very conservative figure for the power output, as have Mugen-Honda.

Incidentally the colours of the Lola-Dome look pretty weird - is it a negative?

Getting back to the Mercedes, it is tuned by HWA in Germany (the Mugen-Honda is prepared by Neil Brown Engineering) and, yes, it does have all the benefits you mention. The way the engine is mounted is very interesting and that's partly the reason for the low centre of gravity, but it's also very rigid. It's based on the Mercedes A Class engine, so is fundamentally light and small. It's taken them about 3 years to achieve near domination.

We keep hearing that one of its advantages is the driveability and the extra torque from low revs, so people thought the engine would have a definite edge at Mondello, but it didn't turn out that way did it? NBE must have done a very good job with their new engine, which was specifically produced to counter the Mercedes.

[ss_collins]

those benefits are over the NBE Mugen rather than the new works Honda or Toda-Honda in use in Japan

[bella]

so how are these new honda units better than the old ones? i'm assuming they're from a different original than the nbe one we use round here?

[macsport]

Originally Posted by strider

That file is quite interesting, macsport, but not quite the information knighty was after, I think. Mercedes have given a very conservative figure for the power output, as have Mugen-Honda.

Incidentally the colours of the Lola-Dome look pretty weird - is it a negative?

While not answering all of Knighty's questions the file does give a comparison between the two engines currently being used in British F3 (Championship Class) this season.
The Lola Dome image must have corrupted when I converted the file into a PDF. I've sorted the file out now and a new version of the file is available via the above link.
The output figures are the official figures received from NBE and HWA. We all know that manufacturers like to keep certain things secret.
I'll leave it to you more knowledgable types to fill the gaps in here.

[Chucky]

There's more than the output figures in those spec sheets that fiction.......

The "works" Mugen engines (XJ6) are based on the F20C road car engine found in the S2000. Much of the good bits from the previous MF204/XH series engiens found it's way into the road engines like the main bearing setup and other lessons learnt. And that engine still comes from NBE anyway. The older XH6 (the national class engine) is the last in line of the old B/H series based engines.

[strider]

Thanks for that, Chucky. I've desperately been trying to remember where the base engine for the XJ6 Mugen-Honda engine comes from, but now you mention it I do recall someone telling me it is the Honda S2000.

And you're right about the National Class engine, too. The XH6 engine was used in the Championship Class in recent years until NBE had to upgrade this season to take on the Mercedes.

[ss_collins]

XJ6 - is the same as the popular CN proto engine too I think - lovely to drive. Honda are very cagey indeed about the new engine (in fact I wasn't allowed to see it properly or take pics of it - whereas Dome tended to let me photograph everything) I'm pretty sure its from a different base unit to the XJ6/S2000 engine. Quite what I'm not sure but certainly - Honda / M-Tec are being super tight on data about it it is called the MF204-C and even the Mugen site lacks pics of it

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Chucky

There's more than the output figures in those spec sheets that fiction.......

Out of interest, what would you say they are then?

[ss_collins]

Heard from my man in Japan - the architecture of the Jap spec mugen is the same - but it is different in a numberof ways to the NBE lump. Apparently NBE 'do a little tuning and ECU stuff' and that about it - where as the works engines are more seriously done by M-Tec (Mugen)

[knighty]

interesting stuff chaps - it dosent surprise me the merc lump is more drivable, the bore is smaller than the honda and the stroke is therefore longer ......hence with a longer throw crank I would expect the merc to have more torque - this is confirmed by torque data comparing the two engines on the F3 site........as the old saying goes "power sells engines, torque wins races"

they seem to be as rare as the proverbial rocking horse brown stuff, but some piccies of the merc F3 engine will be very interesting to see.....anyone?

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Heard from my man in Japan - the architecture of the Jap spec mugen is the same - but it is different in a numberof ways to the NBE lump. Apparently NBE 'do a little tuning and ECU stuff' and that about it - where as the works engines are more seriously done by M-Tec (Mugen)

Unfortunately, head office is better at marketing shiny bits for cars than real work. I think you'll find the info flow is the other way around.

Some pics from Bart's test.

[flor]

Originally Posted by knighty

they seem to be as rare as the proverbial rocking horse brown stuff, but some piccies of the merc F3 engine will be very interesting to see.....anyone?

not the best one but the only one i could find in a few minutes, its very small :/
http://formel3.de/images/hwa-a.jpg
http://formel3.de/images/hwa-b.jpg

[flightlessbird]

Does anyone have rebuild type info on the Mugen Mf204 Formula 3engine?

[JohnMiller]

Neil Brown Engineering Ltd
Benner Road, Wardentree Lane Industrial Estate
Spalding, Lincolnshire, PE11 3TZ

Tel: +44 (0)1775 723052
Fax: +44 (0)1775 710570

Email: admin@nbe.co.uk

[Felon]

Everyone,

Maybe I'm digging someone's grave, but would anyone please show me a link to the "the cars.pdf" that macsport had mentioned before? Much thanks in advance.

[andrewc]

Its an old thread - its likely to have gone. Original post was 4 years ago.

[The Racer X]

I was just doing a quick Google search on these old Mugen-Honda Formula 3 engines and found some good information under this thread.

I was wondering if anyone of you whom replied to this conversation did download this PDF from the British F3 website years ago? The link is now gone, but post here from macsport way back in 2006.

Click Here - http://www.fota.co.uk/downloads.php?event=2&season=2005

I would like to read this comparison and specs on those 2006 Mercedes and Mugen-Honda engines if anyone here does have that, and could email it to me, (brabhambmw07@gmail.com) I appreciate it if possible.

Thanx and regards...