Which is faster - superkart or 1967 F1?

[NCharman]

After playing GP legends, my son asked me whether a superkart is faster than a 1967 F1 car, so I thought I'd look at lap records for some circuits, but it's hard to find circuits that are unchanged for that long. In the UK there's Thruxton - but that is a very open and flat-out circuit - would certainly favour the F1 car, Cadwell park - can't see any results for a Formula 1 race in the late 60's. Nearest I can find is Oulton park 1967 Gold cup fastest lap was 1:30.6, 2011 Outlon park with chicanes - superkart fastest lap was around 1:38. So three questions for you experts out there:
1)Were the Oulton Park chicanes worth 8 seconds a lap?
2)Can anyone think of other circuits which have had F1 cars in 1967/68 and superkarts in 2010/11?

3)Which was quicker?

[PRS RH01]

Originally Posted by NCharman

After playing GP legends, my son asked me whether a superkart is faster than a 1967 F1 car, so I thought I'd look at lap records for some circuits, but it's hard to find circuits that are unchanged for that long. In the UK there's Thruxton - but that is a very open and flat-out circuit - would certainly favour the F1 car, Cadwell park - can't see any results for a Formula 1 race in the late 60's. Nearest I can find is Oulton park 1967 Gold cup fastest lap was 1:30.6, 2011 Outlon park with chicanes - superkart fastest lap was around 1:38. So three questions for you experts out there:
1)Were the Oulton Park chicanes worth 8 seconds a lap?
2)Can anyone think of other circuits which have had F1 cars in 1967/68 and superkarts in 2010/11?

3)Which was quicker?

A modern Formula ford is quicker that a 67 F1 but i know which i would rather drive . Superkarts are amazingly fast but you have to be mental to race one full respect for them though .
Re oulton have a look at Gold Cup times from the last couple of years and see what times late 70s F1s are doing and that should give you some idea. Dont forget they changed the chicane profile again a couple of years ago .
I think there was a Surtees at the gold cup and the karts were there last year as well.
The chicanes add more than 8 seconds but have saved many lives. as someone who has driven both nothing more challenging than an open knickbrook but .

[davyboy]

Back in the early 1980s, I believe somebody lapped the Monaco Grand Prix track in a super kart as quickly as a contemporary F1 car then. I stress the 'I believe', because I've not had the story verified.

A modern superkart would be able to lap Oulton Park quicker than a 1967 F1 car.

[nycuk]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Back in the early 1980s, I believe somebody lapped the Monaco Grand Prix track in a super kart as quickly as a contemporary F1 car then. I stress the 'I believe', because I've not had the story verified.

A modern superkart would be able to lap Oulton Park quicker than a 1967 F1 car.

I've heard something similar. Didier Pironi was apparently convinced he could put a Super Kart on pole for the Monaco Grand Prix.

[ghinzani]

I thought it was Patrick Depailler who thought he could put a kart on pole?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

I thought it was Patrick Depailler who thought he could put a kart on pole?

Depailler rings a bell. He was mad enough to do it.

[Oran Park Forever]

From personal experience, I would say definitely yes.
Racing 250 Superkarts on Australian circuits where in most cases we lapped faster than all local open wheel classes (F3 , FF etc) At Phillip Island the lap record is under the MotoGP record! Same for Eastern Creek.

They are the best fun you can have with your pants on (especially on the Adelaide GP circuit!) but I'm glad I was able to walk away from it 'unscathed'. I saw some truly awful crashes during my 10 years. So probably as dangerous as a '67 F1 car as well!!!


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[JBT]

Originally Posted by PRS RH01

A modern Formula ford is quicker that a 67 F1 but i know which i would rather drive .

They are definitely quicker than a pre-66 F1 car from the lap times the GP cars do at the historic Gold Cup, but i'm not so sure about overhauling something with 3 litre power and at least 200-250bhp more, even accounting for modern FF tyres that are grippier than '67 F1 tyres. It would be fun to find out though! Maybe the '67 cars would be faster on the pre-chicane Oulton where they could stretch their legs a bit from Shell Oils (Or Esso) bend down to Knickerbrook, and modern FF would outbrake and outcorner the '67 cars at the modern version of Oulton.

Superkarts are nearly faster than anything at the right circuit! A mate used to spanner for a 250E team, at the old Hockenheim they were timed at 188mph just before the Jim Clark chicane once...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JBT

Superkarts are nearly faster than anything at the right circuit! A mate used to spanner for a 250E team, at the old Hockenheim they were timed at 188mph just before the Jim Clark chicane once...

... not to mention the acceleration. I have to admit, that kind of speed on that circuit in a Superkart would scare the crap out of me... and that's coming from someone who's driven a Superkart on more than a few occasions.

[Angus Theape]

i seem to remember that one of Eddie Irvine's claims to fame, as that he had lapped Silverstone faster in a FF than Jim Clark in a 1.5lt Lotus. Now that is probably true and a reflection on race car developement over the years. The Lotus having almost exactly twice the power of the FF.

I also seem to remember Martin Hines returning some amazing times in a Kart around Silverstone. As fast, if not faster than the bulk of a 3lt F1 grid.

[davyboy]

I'm not sure about Hines going that quickly around a track like Silverstone. Averaged out among all tracks, Superkarts were generally on a par with F3 cars or F-Renault. On some tracks the karts would be quicker, on others the cars. As an illustration from Hines' heyday, here are some times from 1988 on the same configuration of the Silverstone GP circuit and in dry conditions.

o 07.08.1988 - Formula E fastest lap at the Silverstone Kart Grand Prix - Poul Petersen PVP/Rotax 1m34.07 - 113.62mph.

o 05.06.1988 - Formula 3 fastest lap at round 9 of British F3 championship - JJ Lehto Reynard 883 / TOMS Toyota - 1m29.98 - 118.75mph.

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I'm not sure about Hines going that quickly around a track like Silverstone. Averaged out among all tracks, Superkarts were generally on a par with F3 cars or F-Renault. On some tracks the karts would be quicker, on others the cars. As an illustration from Hines' heyday, here are some times from 1988 on the same configuration of the Silverstone GP circuit and in dry conditions.

o 07.08.1988 - Formula E fastest lap at the Silverstone Kart Grand Prix - Poul Petersen PVP/Rotax 1m34.07 - 113.62mph.

o 05.06.1988 - Formula 3 fastest lap at round 9 of British F3 championship - JJ Lehto Reynard 883 / TOMS Toyota - 1m29.98 - 118.75mph.

I was thinking more early70s

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

I was thinking more early70s

Ah OK, yes you could possibly be right.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

I was thinking more early70s

Angus, unless you've been hidden away in a section I don't visit, warm welcome back!!

[barnettracing]

Are you talking about a modern 250 Superkart? Because, if you are, yes. They would be much, much quicker than a 1967-spec Formula One car (even if it was driven by Jim Clark).

The superkarts have so much mechanical grip compared to, for example, an Eagle-Weslake that even the 400-450bhp of a '67 DFV wouldn't help. Furthermore, the karts have a phenomenal power-to-weight.

A '67 F1 car is probably slightly faster than a modern FF1600 car. Eg: my Van Diemen BR001 is probably faster through the corners thanks to better suspension geometry, spring rates, tyre grip but the power of a DFV would more than overcome my 711M block and my mechanical grip advantage.

On the other hand, a 1961-65 spec' car is probably slower than a modern Formula Ford 1600 car as they only had 180-220bhp from their 1.5 litre engines. This isn't enough of an advantage to overcome the FF1600's mechanical grip. I'd imagine that all of this only applies to post-'89 cars though (and well driven Pre-90's). A Historic or Classic FF1600 car would probably be similar to a 1500cc car, and much slower (4-5+ seconds) than a 3000cc car.

[ghinzani]

I'm pretty sure it was Depailler, around 1978/9 iirc.he had been given a test run in a Formula E or somesuch, was in Autosport so should be out there sonewhere.

[formerf1champ]

It'd have to be confirmed by one of the older Australian posters on here. I was told a story about the first Australian GP at Adelaide in '85, Superkarts were initially scheduled to a support race there. That was until their first practice session where it turned out they were faster than the GP cars! Awaiting confirmation.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

It'd have to be confirmed by one of the older Australian posters on here. I was told a story about the first Australian GP at Adelaide in '85, Superkarts were initially scheduled to a support race there. That was until their first practice session where it turned out they were faster than the GP cars! Awaiting confirmation.

Hhhhmmm... I wouldn't be so sure about that. Adelaide has some long straights, one in particular, and the turbo F1s back then would have been monumentally quick down it. A Superkart wouldn't have been able to make up the difference around the twiddly bits.

Still it's a good reason to watch one of the greatest kart racers of all time shove a mega lap in that year in the Lotus.

Qualifying at Adelaide in 1985.

[Angus Theape]

I have in the back of my mind that Gerry Marshall lapped Oulton park in the early 70s quicker in his 2.5lt Magnum than Fangio in a 250F Maserati. W£hich basically shows the relative speed improvement, mostly from tyres, over the years.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

It'd have to be confirmed by one of the older Australian posters on here. I was told a story about the first Australian GP at Adelaide in '85, Superkarts were initially scheduled to a support race there. That was until their first practice session where it turned out they were faster than the GP cars! Awaiting confirmation.

One of those 'court a fish this big' stories I think! The Formula E (or 250 International) lap record at the Adelaide GP circuit stands at 1min39.5, set in 1989 (cannot recall driver's name....Dutch guy I think) Same year Senna qualified at 1min15ish........However Superkarts could certainly out brake an F1 at the end of Brabham Straight! Still hard on the gas passing the 100m board!!
Superkarts ran there for many years & were a crowd favourite, although other classes such as Group A, FF & early V8SCs hated us as we were the quickest support category.
Lap times slowed a little when the fuel rules changed in '92 & could no longer run the ELF GP bike fuel (worth about 5bhp!)


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[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Hhhhmmm... I wouldn't be so sure about that. Adelaide has some long straights, one in particular, and the turbo F1s back then would have been monumentally quick down it. A Superkart wouldn't have been able to make up the difference around the twiddly bits.

Still it's a good reason to watch one of the greatest kart racers of all time shove a mega lap in that year in the Lotus.

Qualifying at Adelaide in 1985.

If we're going to start suggesting YT videos, here's my contribution...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDfmfA9Qyes

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

One of those 'court a fish this big' stories I think! The Formula E (or 250 International) lap record at the Adelaide GP circuit stands at 1min39.5, set in 1989 (cannot recall driver's name....Dutch guy I think) Same year Senna qualified at 1min15ish........However Superkarts could certainly out brake an F1 at the end of Brabham Straight! Still hard on the gas passing the 100m board!!
Superkarts ran there for many years & were a crowd favourite, although other classes such as Group A, FF & early V8SCs hated us as we were the quickest support category.
Lap times slowed a little when the fuel rules changed in '92 & could no longer run the ELF GP bike fuel (worth about 5bhp!)


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The conversation was a few years ago, was the only time I've ever come across the guy, never thought about the conversation til reading this thread, in one ear, out the other, didn't bother to check it. However, I distinctly remember him saying "faster than the GP cars", but, a low 1:40 would've been quicker than an early model Group A car there so, unless the Formula Pacific/F2 cars were also there (I don't know) he probably meant of classes on the support bill.

[JBT]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Still it's a good reason to watch one of the greatest kart racers of all time shove a mega lap in that year in the Lotus.

Qualifying at Adelaide in 1985.

Great link davyboy. Good to see they used some of that clip in the film Senna.

Oh how I wish they had onboard cameras on some of the cars during qualifying in '85 and '86... The first official race TV onboard of Francois Hesnault lasting a few laps of the '85 German GP on race boost doesn't really show what animals the turbo cars were during 'unlimited boost' qualifying.

The onboards floating around Youtube of Satoru Nakajima during qualifying at the Osterreichring (sp?) in '87 probably give the best impression of wrestling a turbo GP car (along with Johnny Dumfries onboard at Adelaide '86), but by '87 the boost was restricted and with no disrespect, if Fuji had put the camera on Senna's 99T all year instead of Nakajima-san's, the footage might have been even better. Aaarggh, i'm going off topic again...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

If we're going to start suggesting YT videos, here's my contribution...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDfmfA9Qyes

Absolutely fantastic stuff. Great vid.

[Oran Park Forever]

Race 2 at the 1994 AGP was interesting as it rained like stink. This gave us the perfect opportunity to see (or rather not see!) what open wheelers experience.
Lap 1 down Brabham Straight was terrifying, just a wall of spray & hope for the best! However a few bad accidents due to the conditions meant it turned out to be our last run at the GP..........

For Dollars/Pounds per second per lap, you cannot beat Superkarting.....it's one hell of a ride!


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[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

Race 2 at the 1994 AGP was interesting as it rained like stink. This gave us the perfect opportunity to see (or rather not see!) what open wheelers experience.
Lap 1 down Brabham Straight was terrifying, just a wall of spray & hope for the best! However a few bad accidents due to the conditions meant it turned out to be our last run at the GP..........

For Dollars/Pounds per second per lap, you cannot beat Superkarting.....it's one hell of a ride!


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I have a sketchy memory of that race, Gerry Siebert won it, I think. I'm confident there was Superkarts racing in '95, I forgot one of the winners (on a Andersen-Yamaha, I think), the other was John Barabasz.