Montello Park (Development)

[Purist]

I thought I would let you guys have a look to see if there are any misalignments you can find. I don't mind if you comment on the shape of the course outline, but obviously, this just being a cent line, it's a bit early in the process to go on about run-off areas and such.

Since my last communication on this thread, I've tightened one corner, and realigned another curve (made it two arc segments in the end) to eliminate what looked like one possible misalignment. The course center line now measures 4.009 miles.

P.S. Upon further review, the forum is not letting me post the skp file, and the program SketchUp) will not let me save it as an image file near as I can tell. I'll keep working on it.

[LuiggiSpeed]

just do a "print screen",paste it in "paint" program and host it like a jpg or bmp

[Purist]

Here goes, again.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

It's not a misalignment as such but do you really want to straight lines to meet at the left hand end of the longest straight. Maybe gentle curve or a very sharp (short radius) curve just to give an arc.

If you go for the short radius, remember as it's the centre line you'll need to make it a longer radius than you really want as the off-set will shorten it again.

Regarding getting images from Sketchup, you can use the export option under file and save as a 2D graphic at which point will screen capture your circuit at whatever angle you are currently looking at it from. You have the choice of files types to save it as..... Bmp, Png, Jpg and tif.

Edit: There is now there is the option to upload the .skp file.

[Purist]

There actually is a curve between those two straight lines on the main stretch, but I have ended up adding another straight line coming up from the lower right to make a shorter curve that aligns better with both straight portions.

i finally found an odd looking spot by that corner in the lower left. When I erased and put in a new arc there, the figure of the circuit filled in with a blue color, so it seems I finally found the culprit. Thanks goodness for that lucky break. And thanks you your input, all of you.

[Purist]

I made some progress last night. I'm just not sure where I go from here.

I messed around a bit with the layering, but have not sorted out how it works in SketchUp. I have done some layering stuff in Photoshop, but it's obviously not the same in this program.

Also, how do I go about making the 3D structres: pit buildings, stands, retaining walls, overpasses, etc?

Here's what I've got now.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Purist can you check your PMs.

Can you also confirm the direction of the track, as there could be run off issues likewise I'd suggest your pits will most likely need a little tweaking too.

[Purist]

The track runs in the clockwise direction. I am considering narrowing up pit-in a bit (down to two lanes instead of three) to allow room for a rounded barrier at the leading end of the pit wall, so nobody ends up running into a spearhead there by accident.

[LuiggiSpeed]

Awwwwwww now you can download a skp file SWEET!!!

[LuiggiSpeed]

I like it very much Purist, I think it's a very good track, very technical , with a big Parabólica I like so much, only thing I would change it's the pit lane, I thought exiting cars would be in the way of cars/bikes exiting t1, I believe getting them out on the inside of the turn would be safer, but then again I'm not the best pit designer!

[Purist]

You can thank SBF for getting it sorted with the powers-that-be so we can post .skp files.

I'm glad you like it!

I think I was figuring on the left-hand bend after start/finish being gradual enough that you don't really need to use up all of the road. In that case, the vehicles exiting the pits should be reasonably out of the path of those on the racing line. I was envisioning something akin to what we see at Mugello.

Also, if the pits were to driver's left of the straight, exiting cars would be in the way when the guys on line come across to the left edge of the track to line up for the following right-hander.

Speaking of that Italian circuit, I had Mugello and Montjuich Park on my mind when I originally drew this up on paper a little over a year ago, hence the name Montello Park. It wasn't really intentional; I simply realized that this circuit had some noticeable elements from those two tracks.

I think SBF just missed my mention of it in the other thread, but how do you do the layering?

[Quintin03]

Apart from the name (Montello would be realy hard to distinguish from Mondello) I realy like it. One thing though: I can't open the file. My computer says it's an "unexpected format". I don't have the newest version of sketchup so maybe that's the problem. I'll try that first and tell you whether it's worked or not.

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think I was figuring on the left-hand bend after start/finish being gradual enough that you don't really need to use up all of the road. In that case, the vehicles exiting the pits should be reasonably out of the path of those on the racing line. I was envisioning something akin to what we see at Mugello.

Yes,you're right but that's not the problem, the problem is that the pit exit would be at the right,where I thought any car/bike missing t1 (say in a wet race) would meet outgoing traffic.Too risky to believe no on will ever fail.Better on the inside, where there's little or no possibility since physics say it's impossible to slip to the inside of a turn.

Also, if the pits were to driver's left of the straight, exiting cars would be in the way when the guys on line come across to the left edge of the track to line up for the following right-hander.

Yes again and that depends on how close to T1 the exit is, I'd say somewhat after the natural apex is the perfect spot, where cars/bikes would be maneuvering wide in preparation to T2, like you say. I'd say a little before midpoint might be reasonable place to have breaking vehicles meeting accelerating vehicles.

[Purist]

Quintin, yes, you will want Version 7 to open this file, but that should be easy enough to download.

[Quintin03]

It works now. I had version 7 before ut it didn't work somehow. It doesn't matter much though now.

[Purist]

Luggi, I appreciate all that. I just think where it is is about as good as it gets. Mugello has fewer close calls on pit exit than Zandvoort or Brno, which I think give about the closest real world approximations to the potential pit exit scenarios we have here. I would be very interested to see how Mugello goes in the wet, but I don't have a recording of the 2006 FIA GT race there, and am not certain how I can get one at this time.

With the more detailed version I have now, the pit out could provide extra space for someone who runs wide to collect it.

I also figure that there are three redundant measures to keep any pit exit issues to a minimum. First, you have a the driver's spotter, who can radio if there is a problem at pit out while their car is on pit road. Second, there should be a dedicated flag marshal's post near the end of pit wall or at the same relative position on the opposite wall along pit lane. Third, you have the pit light system for closing pit lane when a caution is initially thrown, and for closing pit exit while the cue is going by behind the pace car. This could be augmented to warn of pit exit problems, and have a manual override at the aforementioned marshal's post in cases when a split second, on-the-ground decision is required.

Right now, I'm working on wall placement, and will be getting the pit complex drawn in soon. Here is the latest version.

[Purist]

Perhaps I'm going overboard with some features, but I want to sort out how Sketch-Up works as much as possible with this first track so that subsequent efforts go more smoothly.

Anyway, I've posed my main questions of the moment in the "Tutorial" thread.

If you count all the little bends and kinks, it comes out to something like 23 corners, but a lot of those are quick ones and thus not proper turns really. Before it was removed, the track center line measured 4.006 miles. Run-off area dimensions are based on straight-line, tangential projections from the outside of the curves.

When I've got this done in its full glory, I'll include an extended description with elevation changes and everything (something else I'll need to figure out how to do visually in Sketch-Up at some point).

Here it is in much more detailed form than the last update. Questions, comments, and edits very are welcome.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

A couple of observations.....

Firstly I'd set the grandstands back off the outer barriers, just a few metres gives it a more correct feel.

Second, have a think about the racing lines of corners when it comes to putting in gravel traps. I'd say that you have the right idea in terms of having the gravel for entry and middle of the corners but think about where the car or bike would touch the outside of the circuit on exit of the corner...you'd want to have at least some gravel all the way along to that point, and maybe a little further.

Take a look at some real tracks using Google Earth or Google Maps, most you can see the racing line from the rubber that's on them. You'll see what I mean about the gravel extending further around the corners.

[Purist]

I'll have another few looks at the run-off, especially at the quicker corners.

The tip from the "Tutorial' thread has come off quite well with my first proper, curved retaining walls.

If there isn't a good way to move the grandstands already there, I'll probably just do the rest on this track like the main one for the sake of consistency. Seeing as this is my first Sketch-Up track, I think things are going pretty darn well.

Thanks again for your various bits of advice.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

The easiest way I've found for retaining walls/Perimeter barriers, is parallel lines and then lift/extrude the ground surface up to the height you want the wall.

If you've got the parallel lines correct it'll lift in one go all the way around. Also if you add the colour/texture you want before lifting the three visible sides will all be that colour/texture.

[Purist]

Doing retaining walls is still turning out to be a pain in the butt. I think, in the future, I may just do a single, vertical surface to define the inner edge of the wall.

However, I'm resurrecting this, as I'm once again doing more detail work on my design, and the discussion elsewhere here about showing elevation changes got me thinking. I know this is crude, but I input some parameters, and plotted some elevation profiles for Montello. They're rough, and the differing scales on the x and y axes make for some screwy looking graphs, but at least it's something.

Attached is the Excel file I put together.

[Purist]

Montello Park Description

Alright, this work is to the point that I'm calling it done. This is a lengthy description, so stick with me.

The name Montello Park comes from the fact that, once I had finished drawing the outline of the track, I could see some resemblances to Mugello, Italy and Montjuich Park, Spain in the design.

Anyway, the track runs clockwise. My original numbering scheme had 18 corners, so that's what I'm sticking with. The lap is 4.004 miles. The highest point is at the entry to Turn 6, and the lowest is at the exit of Turn 10. The difference between the highest and lowest points on the track is 315ft (96m). The gradients on the track range from roughly +9.26% to -11.0%. The track is set in wooded hills, or foothills, adjacent to a plateau.

Sector 1:
After the start/finish line, the track quickly rises to the first, left-hand, kink. The climb eases through this unnumbered bend to the left, and continues until about halfway up the straight to Turn 1. Here, there is a small dip before the track continues its rise to the first corner: San Luco. The ascent continues in earnest for the first half of this wide, almost 180-degree curve, before slackening for the remainder, and on up the straight to Turn 2. Again, the gain in height becomes more pronounced going through the quick, decreasing-radius Turn 2. The climb increases a bit more upon entering the sharp right-hander at Turn 3, and reaches a secondary peak in the middle of Turn 4. Turns 3 and 4, plus the short straight between form the Donohue Double, which is slightly banked. The road drops noticeably exiting Turn 4, and continues down until hitting bottom at the entry to Turn 5: the Castellotti Esse. After this compression zone, the circuit rises though the left/right, and on up the following straight with undulations along the way as the track reaches its ultimate peak right at the start of Turn 6: Peterson’s Peak.

Sector 2:
Here begins perhaps the wildest, and certainly the fastest, sector on the course. Upon entering the relatively slow Turn 6, the road begins to drop significantly. The descent eases somewhat with the swing left through the banked Turn 7: the Gurney Sweep. And then, before the start of Turn 8, there is a small hump in the track. The never-ending, high-speed Scarfiotti Loop is comprised of Turns 8 and 9. After the hump between Turns 7 and 8, the course resumes its downward track, until shortly before Turn 9, at which point there is another quick rise. Turn 8 is slightly banked, as is Turn 9, and between them, the road has a stretch that is just a bit off-camber. Turn 9 has the steepest descent of anywhere at Montello, and the drop remains relatively steep more or less until the track bottoms out at its very lowest point, exiting the mildly banked Turn 10: Hulme’s Hollow. After a short, rapid climb, the ascent eases, but continues through the right-hand kink at Turn 11. Just ahead of Turn 12, at the end of the sector, the road dips slightly.

Sector 3:
After a level Turn 12, the road rises for the next stretch, then drops back heading into and through Turn 13: the Campari Carousel. After the small left following the carousel, the track climbs, for a short distance, at its steepest upward inclination. The ascent persists at a reduced rate for a way after that. Then, on approach to, and going through the left, right, and left of Turns 14 (Bellof Bend), 15 (Winkelhock), and 16, the circuit falls away again, though not at a particularly severe inclination overall. There are some undulations here, and a bit of a rise before the track returns to its final serious descent leading into Turn 15. Between Turns 16 and 17, the road levels out, and then begins to come back up. The section from the exit of Turn 15 around to the bridge before Turn 18 is the Ascari Amphitheater. The track levels off again after Turn 17, and has one final dip leading into and through the banked Turn 18 right-hander. From here on, through the flat-out, unnumbered last kink, and on to the start/finish line, the track climbs fairly steeply, until the last bit of the lap where the grade eases to accommodate the starting grid.

Surroundings:
Apart from the start/finish area, the top stretch from Turn 3 through Turn 7, and the stadium before Turn 12, the track is largely hemmed in by evergreen forest. From Turn 3 until Turn 6, the track skirts the edge of a plateau. From the exit of Turn 6 on around through Turn 8, the edge of the plateau looms ever higher as the track drops away. Spectators can use the rail-protected edge of the plateau as a viewing lookout; it's akin to that hill overlook in the infield at Road America that looks down onto Turn 13. There are also spectator hills outside of Turns 1, 5, 10-13, 15, and 17, as well as on the inside of Turns 8, 11, 15, 17, and 18.

Safety:
I’ve kept a minimum 20ft verge everywhere before you reach anything solid. Obviously, for more pronounced corners, I have much wider open areas with gravel and/or pavement. The surface depends on whether it looks more like a zone you’re just going to go careering into, or where you are more apt to enter out of control, or a location where the competitor is more apt to simply slide wide on exit. Around Turns 8 and 9, the verge gets wider than the minimum, though it may be a bit harder to see, and all tangential paths from the outside of the track to the wall are over 200ft, with many of them being 250-300ft. Finally, to discourage what I find to be the worrying trend of abusing run-off as part of the track, and to reduce the need for full course yellows all tarmac and gravel run-off zones are separated from the track surface by some distance.

And I apologize if this post seems overwhelming, but I hope you like the end results.

[bio]

Great job. I love it when a design radiates that there's been thought put into it.

The only thing thaqt looks a tad suspicious to me is the corner directly above and a bit to the right of the paddocks (T7, i believe). The gravel pit there seems to me a little bit too small. Especially that it's a banked turn (according to your great track tour), so drivers and riders will probably apply a more daring approach.

Still, it's a huge effort and a great one.

bio

[Purist]

Thank you, bio.

Yes, that would be Turn 7. I may go back in and add a bit to the back of the gravel trap. I will say that, if you go off at speed, you won't be going straight across the gravel, but traversing it at an angle, which means you'll go through it for a greater distance than it might appear. Secondly, if you go straight off at the end of the straight from Turn 6, which isn't all that long, you have ~192ft (58.5m) until you encounter the retaining wall. On a tangential trajectory, you should have a minimum of ~165ft (50.3m) of run-off before the barriers no matter where in the corner you leave the track. And as smooth transitions between track and verge are mandatory, at least part of the run-off area will be uphill, which will aid deceleration.

Despite my lack of eyesight, I have a very vivid ability to visualize in my mind. So, with the designs I consider to be my best, I automatically picture the lap, and try to put those mental images into the track descriptions.

[LuiggiSpeed]

I'm sorry if I miss something, is the retaining wall the black line on the top view?

If so, I see the run offs a little small, but then you know I am a pain in the eyes with run offs, it's okay I can live with it