Do you think JPM brought about his own downfall?

[Valve Bounce]

At the time of the incident, I felt that JPM moved very abruptly in front of Monteiro and then braked very hard, causing tyres to smoke from at least one of the cars. His manner during the post race interviews was not convincing and gave me the impression that he was trying to blame someone else for his own move rather than being the aggrieved person. Having raised two children gives me an advantage in that direction.

When JPM first came to F1, I was delighted, and posted here that he was a breath of fresh air to F1. Since then, I am afraid that I have had to re-assess my impressions of JPM, and I now find him an arrogant and selfish, attention seeking person, with a distinct attitude problem. His outrageous behaviour at Monaco this year personified that assessment for me; and you might remember he tried to blame someone else on that occasion for his own stupidity also.

While I think JPM will win races in the future, I don't think he has the dedication nor attutude nor mental strength to win the championship in a marginal car nor beat a good driver like Kimi or SchM on equal terms in the championship.

[Kicking-back]

He's the modern day Gerhard Berger to Kimi's Senna.

Montoya will have days where he is supreme and days where he isn't - but it's always entertaining for us, the viewer.

[Oaksnaf]

Umm there was a point in Berger's career when he just stopped beating Ayrton and was never able to do so. I think Montoya can continue to beat Kimi on equal terms for however long he stays at McLaren. At the start of next year it will be interesting to see who gets the jump at the start.

[Not Rated]

He's been sloppy the entire season-Monaco, Montreal, Hockenheim, and now Turkey. I just can't see him consistently outpacing Kimi in an equal car, ever. Might be faster on occasion but lacks the precision and calmness. He is a DC with a bad temper.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Not Rated

He's been sloppy the entire season-Monaco, Montreal, Hockenheim, and now Turkey. I just can't see him consistently outpacing Kimi in an equal car, ever. Might be faster on occasion but lacks the precision and calmness. He is a DC with a bad temper.

What makes you say Monaco, he couldn't even attain full lock on the car because of his injuries, if anything he drove above his injuries, probably returned one GP too early. But he didn't fully recover until 2 GP's after Monaco. So if you want an excuse for Monaco it was because he could not attian full lock and was still very much in pain suffering from his shoulder injury.

[Super Tourer]

I like JPM but he is still strangely prone to errors that you don't expect from a driver of his experience.

I agree with some of the above comments, there will be days when is very fast, untouchable and others when he is out of sorts and throws away results through errors of judgement.

His lack of consisitency is his weakest link, some drivers have that basic flaw and are never able to improve on it, Ralf S for example. I'm sure McLaren will work harder with him and go over decision making and control.

The incident with the Jordan was unfortunate. To me it looked like he cut infront of the Jordan too early and it was sucked into the back of him under braking. The question is that JPM had a massive speed advantage over Montiero and could have passed him anywhere, so was it a bad choice - in hindsight yes.

[Kicking-back]

Plenty of top drivers have tripped over backmarkers from time to time.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Since then, I am afraid that I have had to re-assess my impressions of JPM, and I now find him an arrogant and selfish, attention seeking person, with a distinct attitude problem.

That's what I thought of him all along.

I don't think he has the consistency to win the world championship, or to beat Raikkonen on a regular basis. He's been unlucky at times this season, suffering with the McLaren's dodgy reliability, but at others he just hasn't looked as though he has it in him to beat his team-mate.

As regards the Monteiro incident, if we have to apportion blame I'd say Montoya brought it on himself. He didn't need to take Monteiro at that moment, at that speed. He could have passed him under blue flags anywhere on the track, and as a result he probably wouldn't have lost 2nd place to Alonso.

[Glen]

Presumably if the team weren't so annoyed at him at the time he would have been more circumspect after the race - not an apology perhaps, but maybe less defensive. Still - the sport needs Juan just the way he is - there aren't enough wild and exciting drivers.

[John Turner]

Agree, Glen, he does bring interest and excitement to F1 - a bit like a latter day Mansell, but not quite in the same class and with more mistakes. It's just JPM being himself, and although I have doubts about his ultimate ability and attitude, I don't think I feel as strongly as Valve Bounce's reassessment of him!

[Big-O]

How is it, shouldn't the backmarkers get out of the way, when being laped(for the second time in this case). Of course JPM could have waited till Monteiro gave him a better chance ... but heii, why wait when you have the right to get pass the slower, to laps down guy ????

Like Lauda said on RTL, Racer has to trust the backmarker to back off while being laped ....

[Russ-Turner]

I don't feel sorry for JPM one bit!

[joe rossi]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

What makes you say Monaco, he couldn't even attain full lock on the car because of his injuries, if anything he drove above his injuries, probably returned one GP too early. But he didn't fully recover until 2 GP's after Monaco. So if you want an excuse for Monaco it was because he could not attian full lock and was still very much in pain suffering from his shoulder injury.

No, at Monaco he caused a 3 car pile up by "brake -testing" Ralf

[Jordi]

I wonder whether Kimi, Pedro or Alexander would have the things he's done this year. It's one thing to be passionate and wild, but it's another to, like at Monaco, create potentially dangerous situations.

Regarding Turkey, how many drivers in the last years have been hit from behind by a backmarker after just being lapped?

Normally contact between a leading car and a lapped car occurs when the passing driver gets impatient, not after he's made the pass, so something is different here between Montoya and the rest.

I must admit that, because I want Kimi to win this title, I was particularly peeved at Juan for losing 2nd place, and I was going around the house calling for Pedro to race...

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by Big-O

How is it, shouldn't the backmarkers get out of the way, when being laped(for the second time in this case). Of course JPM could have waited till Monteiro gave him a better chance ... but heii, why wait when you have the right to get pass the slower, to laps down guy ????

Like Lauda said on RTL, Racer has to trust the backmarker to back off while being laped ....

He did pass Monteiro alright. He just didn't need to almost block the Jordan on the braking zone... Why switch his line so immediately? Of course he will want the best line to go into the corner, but it is certainly better to lose 2 tenths by going into the corner not quite well rather than losing 6 or 8 seconds while spinning.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by joe rossi

No, at Monaco he caused a 3 car pile up by "brake -testing" Ralf

This incident was not related to his race performance which i was directing my point at. It was rather stupid of Montoya, but didn't Michael brake test him..... hehe guess that issue has been dried out like a tomato in the sun.

Montoya is on the up, and we have seen that in the past few GP's. Without car woes, he would have had a decent run of podiums.

[chunterer]

We're not talking GT racing here folks!

It's the responsibilty of the lapped driver to get right out of the way and not intefere with the front runner! so to moan about Montoya for 'chopping' in front of Monteiro is ridiculous...if Montoya was Piquet he'd have run up to him after the race and wacked him a la Salazar!!

It was an unfortunate accident involving a driver who already has far too many people on his back! It's another excuse for a bit of bashing imo!!

However there is some milage in suggesting he could have waited but not much. It doesn't matter where you lap a back marker - but certainly at the end of a long straight is an ideal place to do it!! Which is exactly what Montoya did. Also all drivers who lap someone are perfectly within their rights to retake the racing line.. why on earth would he want to go off line onto a load of dirt and lose time to Alonso?

I thought exactly what he said afterwards it was ridiculously similar to the Verstppen shunt, another example of a backmarker not getting out of the way properly.

As for the 'pace' thing he is now fully upto speed and over the winter his shoulder will have more recovery time as well. I fully expect him to be challenging for the title next year.

[Glen]

He hidn't even have to fr!kin' wait! Just don't swerve like a lunatic in the braking zone! Monteiro can't be expected to anticipate that - no driver can, because it is just plain impossible for him to react in time. Montoya swerved very fast into his line, unsighted him, sucked all his front downforce away and then slammed on the (probably much better than the Jordan's) brakes - guess what happens next? Montoya was very lucky to get away with a very minor spin.

It isn't bashing by the way - I really like Montoya and support him all the way.

[chunterer]

Fair enough, but Monteiro should've backed off before they started braking, as Montoya went past him before the braking zone didn't he?

[Oaksnaf]

Well in the last 4 GP's, Kimi has scored 26 points, Montoya 24. And both have had 1 retirement. So point wise he is not in a downfall of performance and really aint far behind Kimi at all. And in the last 4 GP;s, Alonso has scored 28 points. Had Monty not dropped to 3rd, and Alonso up to 2nd. In the past 4 races all drivers would be on the same amount of points.

[chunterer]

Interesting statistic there Oaksnaf.

Very telling as one of those 3 is supposed to be 'inconsistent'!

[garcon]

Very interesting Oaksnaf! That gives alot of credence to the view that far from being in a downward spiral, JPM has improved on his early season form. If he hadn't tried playing tennis on a quad bike ( ) he might well be in the thick of the battle at the top!

JPM tends to drive on the edge - he flirts with danger when a more cautious driver wouldn't. His encounter with Monteiro is typical of that. Of course, that's what makes him what he is, and I wouldn't want to dilute the animal instinct he has behind the wheel. But ultimately, despite being fast, competitive, aggressive, it might be why he never wins a WDC. Having said that, I think he has the potential for one great season, where it all comes together and he wins the WDC - if he does, you can be sure it'll be spectacular.

So, although Kimi and Alonso have overtaken him in the accession line for Michael's throne, reports of JPM's demise as a competitive F1 driver would appear to be premature.

[chunterer]

Absolutely, the odds are that this 'great season' could well be next year.

The Mclaren v Renault battle reminds me of Mclaren Williams '91.

Senna got the early edge but from a third of the season onwards was playing defensive to protect a points lead and the only reason Williams didn't overhaul him was down to releiability - very similar to the form this year don't you think?

This mans that next year Mclaren will have relaibility sorted and (unfortunately for purists) totally dominate. It's headed for a classic inter team battle for the title i reckon before Kimi steps over to Fiat and leaves Monster with a chance at either defending his title....

[garcon]

One potential fly in the ointment to that theory - next year's car is going to be very different to this year's, so it's quite possible that all the work McLaren have done on reliability through this season will have to be done all over again.

For the same reason, I don't think we can predict any particular team will dominate next year. I also tend to believe that if the McLaren is dominant Kimi is more likely to come out on top - but I wouldn't rule out that 'great season' from JPM... a bit of early season luck could give him the advantage.

[Oaksnaf]

Exactly garcon and when you decide to look at his Canadian, French and Hungary performances you ought to say "gee this guy has got his act together. Really in the past 6 GP's {excluding INDY} Montoya would have finished on the podium in each event, problems aside. Gee that aint bad at all, for someone who is meant to be going backwards....

Canada we can forgive Montoya, the initial reason for him not being pulled into the pits was a lack of attention from his race engineer who was chatting to him, or looking at some data somewhere (either of the two) and by the time he had noticed SC was out, it was too late. He would have at least finished 2nd then.

And Hungary would have won without failure, some blame his incident with a BAR generator. But had that been the problem he would have failed much earlier in the race. (thats what i feel). People always look for a reason to dis-credit someone.

France, another failure cost him a podium.

Monaco and Europe, Monty was still suffering the effects from his shoulder injury and since then he has shone. So really Australia, Malaysia McLaren did not have the best machinery, and could not get the 1 lap together.Spain (pit troubles cost him deerly), Monaco and Europe shoulder problems leading to an inability to push and drive the car to its potential, adding to that being out of the race car for that time, and not being apart of the Mclaren ressurection. That is 4/5 GP's in which he was not exactly competative.

So wait a second. The first portion of the season was marred by injury and a McLaren that did not have one lap speed. So let me get this straight, in the past 6 GP's Montoya has finished/ DNF on the podium. So so he is on a downward spiral.....right it all makes sense now. Downward spiral. (note sarcasm)

Of the races i have:
Hungary; average 10 fastest laps (note Kimi 3 stopping, Montoya 2)
1 K. RAIKKONEN 1:21.396
2 M. SCHUMACHER 1:21.606
3 J. MONTOYA 1:21.663

France: And he retired whilst only 4 seconds behind Kimi
1 F. ALONSO 1:16.627
2 K. RAIKKONEN 1:16.727
3 J. MONTOYA 1:17.255

Canada:
1 J. MONTOYA 1:14.881
2 K. RAIKKONEN 1:14.972

Siverstone:
1 K. RAIKKONEN 1:21.273
2 J. MONTOYA 1:21.348



I dont have Germany, or Turkey yet.


Everyone loves to compare Montoya to Kimi and continuelly bag Montoya because he is so far behind Kimi. But wait a second, on pace he hasnt exactly been blown away by Kimi has he? On strategy he hasn't been blown away. He is NOT in a downward spiral, he is just starting to get better and he will continue to get better. Also notice the Mclaren which was characteristically built around Mika, Adrian Newey has said many times, Kimi's driving style is basically the same as Mika, they like the same things. So with a cars characteristics more to the liking of Kimi than Montoya it all seems to fall into place. That extra edge Kimi has might be due to the cars characteristics favouring his style more-so than Montoya.

We'll see.

Montoya is no slouch tahts for sure.