NZV8 - Headgate and scrutiny issues

[fat boy]

Originally Posted by go the fords

Some of us know most of the facts and some of the things that have been said. The white label has had no real contribution to this mess and has been used to personaly attack DD.

Yes the man enjoys a coldie at the end of the race day ( after work ) like most of us,

but to treat him like GB has, is very unfair. GB got caught out doing something he should not have....that is now judged as fact.

Attacking the messenger after that serves no purpose and yes there might be a couple more racers that should have lost points..... but they are lower down the order and dragging it all back up would serve no real purpose...


............if he and Tracer are serious they should look to prove to us and the world they can win it within the rules........and win this comming year........last year is done and dusted but they are still chucking the toys around the cot and giving DD more hassels than he deserves.And yes DD has his faults but he dosnt deserve the personal attacks.

<snip>Not proven as far as I'm concerned. "because I say so" does not constitute proof. EP. </snip>

Secondly what you are saying about the other motors being down the order so it doesn't matter, Why not ? what you are saying is that it is alright to cheat as long as your not winning. !!!!!!! Don't agree at all as another of the dodgy heads finished rather high in the order so he has got away with it because it doesn't matter because he was down the order! All Gb wants is to be treated fairly like the rest. If the heads were wrong so be it, take the punishment and move on, But ALL of them should have been given the same scrutiny as Johnny's and Pauls and ALL that were dodgy should have been thrown out.

[Tracie]

I am just not sure what GB is hoping to achieve at this point of time

The alleged heads in question are now outside any technical security of evidence so it is not possible that the competitors concerned can be penalised in any way -- continuity of evidence would not permit this

GB's personnal attacks on DD are simply not on - Do not forget that the measurements taken were checked by another person and proven to be the same so what is the issue!!

GB's cylinder head modifier admitted that he did the machining, it was proven to be contrary to the rules, penalties have been given -- lets get on with it

roll on 2006/07 season

[mountainstar]

I can't believe you guys are still fighting over the gdamn headgate crap, enough already.

1. I'm no technical man so don't hold my feet to the fire, perhaps an exact spec ford and holden engine needs to be created and maintained by one supplier.

2. Why not adopt the fujitsu cars instead and phase the NZ V8's out. That's a formula that already works, teams from oz could lease cars or sell old ones outright to NZ. The fujitsu teams would have a place to race over the summer, giving new drivers more experience and a chance for kiwi drivers to have their talent better displayed. More fans and sponsors would probably be more interested in the faster, better cars. I could go on and on, but I think the fujitsu series cars would work better than the current formula.

[Mr Keener]

Nice thought mountainstar.Only point your missing is the extra few hundred thousand it would require to purchase and run ex convict cars. Cant, wont and shouldn't happen.

[go the fords]

Originally Posted by Tracie

roll on 2006/07 season

yep Tracie Im with you....I just want DD left alone He was very upset on Saturday nite over this whole thing that should be dead and buried......2 weeks ago...
There is nothing wrong with our cars and class that a few rule tightners and clarifiers will not fix...........just a few tweeks.......maybee a half point of compression against the Ford ( cant believe I just said that ) like has been discussed <snip>keep the insults to yourself</snip>

[jim beam]

Originally Posted by go the fords

yep Tracie Im with you....I just want DD left alone He was very upset on Saturday nite over this whole thing that should be dead and buried......2 weeks ago...
There is nothing wrong with our cars and class that a few rule tightners and clarifiers will not fix...........just a few tweeks.......maybee a half point of compression against the Ford ( cant believe I just said that ) like has been discussed to keep the Holden Homos happy....

If DD had done his job PROPERLY in the first place he wouldn't be in this position End of story.!!!!!!!!

[Tracie]

and then of course if GB cylinder head modifier had sought clarification before machining the head we would not even be discussing this

some people are just too clever for their own good and then need to spread the blame for their own errors onto the policeman --- sure does not work for me

I had a level of respect for Tracer Motorsport for their professional approach to the class but it sure is being tested at the moment

[go the fords]

Originally Posted by jim beam

If DD had done his job PROPERLY in the first place he wouldn't be in this position End of story.!!!!!!!!

Very harsh JB the problem was very hard to spot and a special tool had to be made to measure the issue , but the heads are not the issue now. Its the way DD has been treated for doing his job... The Cheeters were caught. The more fuss they make of what most all agree is now is an old issue the sillyer they look..........my last comment on all things HEAD...Im tired of it.....
...We might ask Robbo if we can use a big block this year.

[V8's rule]

Originally Posted by jim beam

If DD had done his job PROPERLY in the first place he wouldn't be in this position End of story.!!!!!!!!

S0V.12, sorry jim beam, I agree we really have had enough of Headgate...we all know that you personally did not cheat but the buck stops with you...As for Dave Davies we could do a hell of a lot worse than DD...nobody's perfect...not even moi.

[go the fords]

[QUOTE=jim beam]. I am involved in motorsport but not how you think. I have sat on the outside and looked in on this all the way through, I have read all the MSNZ reports and also got some insider info but am not tied up with the team.

Thats a big Call if you have not delt with DD on a one to one dailey basis ( at race weekends ) He has a very hard job to keep up with 33 very smart teams that all want to find a winning edge most within the rules but all rub up to the very edge or the rules to try to get an advantage....After all thats what racing is all about.....he is part of the "Law" thats why he gets all the bad eggs throwen at him.he still is part of the sport and is still a very important part.....thats why many of us feel it wrong to shoot the messinger........

[EvilPumpkin]

Ok new topic just for this. Please keep to the facts on this one. Thanks.

[Gherkin]

Guys who is DD sound like he has a big job thats fairly thankless from the competitors

[Tracie]

DD is the appointed championship scrutineer who has as one of his responsibilities to ensure compliance of technical regs - so basically he is the one who inspects the cars and reports any variations to the class technical regs to Event Director who then takes whatever action/penalty is necessary

as you can appreciate it can be a very lonely job - and very easy to be removed from Xmas card lists

[ford lover]

Hi everyone this is moose,

This will only interest those people who wish to see factual info, or those who haven’t got their heads buried in the sand.

After having watched this forum for the last several weeks, I feel it is time to forward my perspective on recent events.

As some of you will know I have been actively involved in this class of motorsport and Tranzam for many years having enjoyed some 13 national series podiums out of 15 years of racing.

I would like to think that starting with Paul.P/Cat racing and carrying on with Tracer/Caltex/Timberworld and currently Hydraulink (Paul P and Johnny Mac), that we as teams instigated and carry on a high level of professionalism in this class.

So with reference to the so called Headgate affair the unprecedented Trial By Media has led to many persons questioning the integrity of our team as a whole. Because we enjoy a measure of success in our racing we spend a hell of a lot of time under Tech scrutiny, sometimes to the point of really ****ing me off. A lot of you out there don’t realise how long it takes to build, prepare and race a car or cars of this calibre. Sure, I as a builder do push the parameters to the max. as do most other engineers, but to push to the extent of cheating, NO, I enjoy my job far too much for that. The constant Tech. scrutiny that we have endured over the years and the resulting outcomes (apart from one error in early commodore racing) must surely affirm Credibility.

FACT NOT INNUENDO: A witch hunt was instigated by a member of another Ford team where information was given to tech personnel that we were running heads with a specific configuration that contravened the applicable rule.

Another teams head was checked 6 weeks before ours. This particular head was and still is exactly the same as ours but was passed.

Our head was checked 2 weeks after the Taupo round, after a long day of testing at Puke. This inspection was carried out in front of several people. The Tech Officers comment was; this is not what I was told to look for (relevant to the physical and measurable shape of the bowl.) I can’t see why you wont have the head back in the morning. The head was subsequently taken away on the pretext of being measured by a second person from whom we received no verification of, the as quoted “one three thousandths of an inch measurement”. The head was not seen again by us for three weeks.

Even the lead up to the inspection was strange with me receiving a phone call out of the blue saying there would be a tech guy at my workshop within the hour to put more seals on top of seals to the engines. As it transpires the aforementioned Ford team member had told a Tech officer that I remove seals all the time. This hurt!! I or any of my team members have never removed seals from our engines illegally.

The inspection on our head took 1-2 hours, yet the inspection after the last round from most of the competitors heads took little longer with a full pass rate – Crap!! Its also interesting to note that at the end of the 05 season the heads in question (ours) in fact the whole engine were teched by 5 officers and passed.

We as a team still maintain we are within the interpretation (S) of the rule and to back this up our engines run different sized bowl configurations as part of our development programme. Interestingly 2 of our other engines of which both Johnny and Pete have run this season passed inspection.

To work with people such as Tracer’s Greg and Graeme and previously Paul Pedersen and my team, who all actively and regularly help other racers on and off the track, is a privilege. To go bashing the integrity and credibility of team owners and drivers (Johnny Mac & Paul P) is ludicrous and distasteful, especially when they leave myself and my excellent crew to all things mechanical. Jeopardy is not part of our vocabulary.

[MrBean]

Thankyou for your vaulable contribution Moose. I dont wish to debate whats tabled here, at the end of the day the facts have been heard & in this case ruled on. I would like to ask however, do you consider the tech bods involved have the ability to inspect consistantly & correctly & do you believe the current lead seal method is adequate ?
Again thanks a great contribution.

[go the fords]

Well said Moose....your comitment to the sport is well acknwledged down pit lane as is your drivers and crew. The Head thing has been and gone and im sure all up pit lane will have their own opnions , . The issue that seems to have carried on the whole " headgate" issue further is now not the heads but the way your leader has treated DD. He could have behaved in a more stable manor and not gone for DDs throat and becoming very personal about him to the point when public opnion has turned against GB.
DD was doing his job to the best of his ability while trying to keep some very clever engineers happy.He is our policeman....
As pointed out in this thread Johnny has never lost his cool and has remained calm and professional and thats to be commened. ( and Paul )
The heads have beed deemed to not fit in the rules , but you did what you thought would fit in the rules.at the time.......thats what engineers do......that is what racing is all about. I think the main part of the backlash...particuarly in the past 2 weeks or so is more about the way GB has behaved.......by shooting the messinger....... Move on Moose and team we will all be back on the grid very soon....and this will all be last years issue........ Keep those fords rockin..........

[Southern Man]

Move on guys, rumour is around the world before the truth ever gets out of bed in the morning. Deal in facts not suggestions.

Be proactive and come up with a better system that will stand scruitiny.

Last season is fish and chip wrappings now, it is obsolete, it is over.

[go the fords]

While we are speeking of Ashley did you realise that Clark Proctor has Ashleys old car and it still has the number 72 on the rear quater windows........

[Bread Roll]

Whats Daves address I will sned him a Christmas card to keep him happy

Well done guys a great job in the end

[Mr Keener]

Read Very Slowly GTF . Does Moose believe any engine seals were tampered with last season??

[go the fords]

I must be a bit slow or too honest or something like that. I have never thought it possable to tamper with the seals but looking at them they are quite basic and after someone posted that they can be removed with a 9 V battery it seems like its definitaly time to change the method of sealing the engine. It has never occured to me to try as the spanner men on our team have never tried to bring up the subject.It would not be passed by us "older " team members as this would be a direct "Cheeting " and not stretching the rule book like some of the issues in the past. It would be a real shame if this practice is happening in NZ.........if there is doubt they should be changed to something that can not be tampered with.......

[Tracie]

I understand that the techos had suspicions about one car last year but were not able to adequately prove it so did not take it to the Event Director

It is all very well to have ideas that seals have been tampered with but techos must be able to 'prove it' to a level that will stand scrutinery - supose that they do err on the cautious side - like GTF says seal tampering is not stretching the rules it is cheating and I am sure that Robbo would not have any level of amusement in that charge if proven

[Mr Keener]

That's the whole point.If it was happening it is almost impossible to detect.Time to nip down to Subaru or over to HSV and borrow the data dot machine

[Tracie]

I agree

am sure that some of the techos do lurk on this site and be interesting to see what if any changes are made in this area for next year

[Starter123]

I am sure the Techos do lurk here, and maybe even Robbo...
I am also informed thet "Robbo's Ramblings" are making a return to email boxes around the traps. The "Ramblings" should be worth reading - as they always were.