BAR's drop-off in performance?

BARFing mad · 17 Jul 2004, 21:50 (Ref:1039264)

How come the previously 'hot' BAR has fallen back into the pack in the last couple of races? Have the others just caught up or have they lost the plot?

Kicking-back · 17 Jul 2004, 21:55 (Ref:1039265)

I think it's more that McLaren have leapfrogged them, than BAR have fallen back

**Spudgun** · 17 Jul 2004, 22:05 (Ref:1039268)

As a season progresses, it's also a race off-track as to who can develop their car the fastest.

McLaren have gone to the extreme and introduced a for all intents and purposes, a new car.

pirenzo · 17 Jul 2004, 22:11 (Ref:1039273)

I think they've not moved forward as much as the other teams. Lets face it, you can't really get slower as a season progresses, others can only get faster relative to you...
I'm sure they'll resolve to close the gap and in a few races hopefully they'll have done that.

ralf fan · 17 Jul 2004, 22:18 (Ref:1039287)

i think Mac have stunned them with the new car...

Renaults have been reliable as well

Knowlesy · 17 Jul 2004, 22:26 (Ref:1039291)

BAR are new to the front of the field and so won't quite have the same technical pace as the others.

They are learning and they will catch up. I'll bet many expected them to fall away sooner than they have!

**Spudgun** · 17 Jul 2004, 22:30 (Ref:1039296)

I think you're right there knowlesy. This is their first year running at the 'pointy end'. This is a learning year on being at the front.

Mark Webber · 18 Jul 2004, 00:52 (Ref:1039343)

I always had the belief that once Williams and Mac picked back up that would be the end of BAR on the poduim. Both Mac and Willaims have had shock 1st halfs of the year and Bar where just in the right place at the right time . I think Renault is a stronger outfit than BAR . While it looks like Mac are/have come back to form Bar's big /last hope is the Williams does have real driver issue's ATM and should only get worse by years end as I'm sure Frank/Pat & Sam don't want to give to much away for next years car to the likes of Ralf(when his back) and jpm

Poddy · 18 Jul 2004, 02:14 (Ref:1039376)

Quote:

Originally posted by Spudgun
I think you're right there knowlesy. This is their first year running at the 'pointy end'. This is a learning year on being at the front.

Yeah, agreed. And TBH, I don't think it's really been the car that's been the problem these last two races but the team.

In France, Button could easily have been third if the team had been a bit more on the ball with the pitstops and if they had a bit more understanding of the Michelin rubber, Button could have done better in the British GP.

I don't think they're losing the plot so to speak - the car still seems to have the raw speed to cut it against everyone bar Schumacher - but I think DR will probably now be able to see where the team as a whole needs to shape up next season so they can take that first win.

Gt_R · 18 Jul 2004, 03:11 (Ref:1039379)

Yeah.i don't think it's really an issue of BAR slowing down. Just that their immediate rivals made larger improvements at a quicker rate than BAR.

Not surprising really given their freshie status challenging as a front running team.

Teams like Mclaren and Williams had made HUGE changes to their cars...and BAR meanwhile decided not to introduce untried new parts at Silverstone. So it kinda lose them an edge.

Their developement seem to have slow/stagnant at recent races...and this is where Willis, Button and Richard have to really start pushing the team to produce more.

Logrence · 18 Jul 2004, 13:26 (Ref:1039577)

They've had a few unexpected problems within the past few races with the new packages they've developed for the aero side of the car - at Silverstone they had to ditch the mods they hoped would give them better stability in the faster corners because the new bits were unusually susceptible to cross winds - which you get aplenty at Silverstone.

Add that to the fact that the other teams are catching up with them and you can see why they aren't living up to early season promise.

Glen · 19 Jul 2004, 08:37 (Ref:1040113)

Usually a good team will find more extra performance as they develop the car through the season than tey found building a completely new car in the off season - so all the teams are going forwards with development, but some are striding more strongly than others. McLaren's step with the 19B is very big, whereas BAR have admitted to being cautious and not putting too much new stuff on the car before it is tested thoroughly. There will be more from them, and it will be soon - the summer testing ban is upon us.

Gt_R · 19 Jul 2004, 11:06 (Ref:1040229)

Basically, there shouldn't be any surprise that Mclaren's new car is a far larger improvement than that managed by BAR in the same period. The Mclaren is afterall almost a brand new car heavily revised from the four wheels up, while BAR is basically developing their original car with newer parts.

Furthermore, huge and experienced teams such as Williams and Mclaren and Ferrari have the capability,experience,efficiency and resources to keep pushing developement at full steam even for the duration of a season. Compared to them, BAR is relatively inexperienced and has lesser capacity to maintain the momentum required, especially when the requirements of the next season's car starts to exert more workload on the team.

BAR's currently having some difficulty in extracting the most from their new parts and testing them fast enough for use on the track. Hence, it isn't surprising to find them stumble as the others keep improving.

Unfortunately, it seems that after the string of impressive podiums and points achieved by Button, the team seem to be on cloud 9 and a little bit over-confident. They've basically predicted wins in USA, France, Silverstone...but came home disappointed and failed to impress..sure gives the team's motivation and morale a beating.

That's where the test comes..does the team and the key personnels (DR, GW, JB) have what it takes to rally the support of the team and push ahead while keeping their feet on the ground or would the small cracks in the team get worse and the team start slipping back again. I hope it's the former.

Phoenix1 · 19 Jul 2004, 15:04 (Ref:1040442)

How much of this, engine wise at least, can be put down to time taken to see why satos engine keeps letting go? I do not know how BAR are set-up/split their time but could this effect them a or is it simply part of the day to day routine in terms of time planning, further more how much does each blow up cost financially and time wise?

Poddy · 19 Jul 2004, 23:10 (Ref:1040852)

If investigating Sato's blown engines wasn't part of the routine at the start of the season it probably is now :P

Dunno how much it would cost though... surely only lost man hours, as they presumably rebuild the engines after each race anyway?

Kicking-back · 19 Jul 2004, 23:13 (Ref:1040857)

They do indeed.

1200Datto27 · 19 Jul 2004, 23:46 (Ref:1040879)

It also depends on the damage done to the engine, especially the blocks. I would hazard a guess that each blowup results in at least one scrapped head and block, as well as crankshaft, rods and pistons and valves.

BootsOntheSide · 20 Jul 2004, 10:34 (Ref:1041085)

Whenever a team makes a big leap from one season to the next, they will struggle to sustain the advance as the year goes on. What's more, McLaren have now made real improvements and seem liekly to be at least as fast repeatedly.

AlesiUk · 20 Jul 2004, 20:32 (Ref:1041632)

BAR dont know why there car was quick in the first place,and therefor cant develope it. They will continue to drop back as the season goes on

Kicking-back · 20 Jul 2004, 20:33 (Ref:1041633)

I don't think that's true, AlesiUK.

It was the punters who were surprised by BAR's speed, not the team.

Teretonga · 20 Jul 2004, 20:58 (Ref:1041663)

BAR opened the season with a well set up car, a huge step up from last year. that development hasn't been continued at the same pace as McLaren (who had to do something!)nor ferrari whose brains trust has further depths in which to dredge up more advantage. Williams don't seem able to make a lot of progress either, or may haev been up a few blind alleys.
Sauber put down most of their improvement at Silverstone to tyres and a revised rear bodywork.
if that is true it shows that very small changes can result in what become significant gains (or losses!) due to the evenness of much of the field, and the difficulty of passing. (Look at Alonso at Silverstone, couldn't pass Massa but this was the same guy who beat everyone but TFG at magny-Cours)

Vicki · 21 Jul 2004, 10:45 (Ref:1042012)

I think it's a case of others catching up. But BAR has come on in leaps and bounds since last year.

Mr V · 21 Jul 2004, 11:45 (Ref:1042061)

I'll bet that BAR, had they been told last year that they would come 4th at Silverstone this year, they would have jumped at the result. Funny how things change in F1, that they are now disappointed with a 4th.

Kicking-back · 21 Jul 2004, 13:43 (Ref:1042179)

It just shows the higher standards they now have, coupled with expectation.

**Peter Mallett** · 23 Jul 2004, 09:29 (Ref:1044303)

Just looking at the first half of Germany Practice it seems Ant isn't as quick so far.