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17 Nov 2006, 18:46 (Ref:1768762) | #1 | ||
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Level playing field?
Do ppl REALLY think all teams play ( race ) by the rules??
Here is a the 2006 list of violations and the fines for Grand Am. PDF format http://w3.grandamerican.com/Content/...ionBlotter.pdf |
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
19 Nov 2006, 18:28 (Ref:1769742) | #2 | |||
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I reckon, it's not a big list of violations, considering it is for entire year... anyway, I think, people in paddock will notice, if any great cheating is going on, especially they know the history behind the certain team members (like crew chiefs Chad Knaus and Todd Berrier in NASCAR, who were caught many times during tech inspections)
there's nice piece from pitpass.com article regarding rules violations and rules controlling in 70's-80's Quote:
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there's no way to peace, peace's the way alexshurikus Looking to visit 2013 Le Mans 24 Hours race. Any advice will be welcome! :) |
19 Nov 2006, 22:20 (Ref:1769885) | #3 | |
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"How much difference is one-sixteenth of an inch going to make!?" -- attributed to Adrian Fernandez
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21 Nov 2006, 11:45 (Ref:1771363) | #4 | |||
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For a season, though, I'd say that's pretty good really. |
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21 Nov 2006, 15:51 (Ref:1771511) | #5 | ||
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21 Nov 2006, 16:18 (Ref:1771533) | #6 | |||
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
21 Nov 2006, 19:16 (Ref:1771658) | #7 | ||
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The MC-12 ..... that car was never built to the rules . Thats why (imo) Le Mans told them to get lost , and rightly so . It doesnt matter if the car looks nice or that is is a massive manufacturer . If it doesnt comply , it doesnt start .
A very arrogant attitude from MR . Jean Todt who was incharge of the project if you ask me . It almost seemed that his attitude was "they wont tell us our car is illegal cuz of "WHO" we are !!! The MC-12 was allowed to race in the ALMS cuz they needed the numbers to fill the grid and no other reason . In my mind that was wrong . If ALMS claim to run a championship to Le Mans rules ..... they obviously dont !!! Same thing with the Audi R8 too . But , if the rules are sometimes adjusted , we sometimes have to live with that . The other option is a smaller grid and maybe the end of a championship !!! |
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21 Nov 2006, 19:50 (Ref:1771689) | #8 | |
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IIRC, Aston Martin complained loudy about the Maserati's legality and then the AMs were found to be a couple mm wide themselves (hmm...that's about a 1/16th of an inch). Not a major violation, but ironically amusing.
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21 Nov 2006, 20:19 (Ref:1771714) | #9 | ||
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The ALMS awarded no points or purse to the MC12. They also send very competitive if not the winning teams to LeMans. So as to the validity of the ALMS as a properly run and ethical(loosely) body, I think they cut the mustard. Should they have let it run??? Maybe not.
L.P. |
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21 Nov 2006, 23:24 (Ref:1771897) | #10 | |||
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Ferrari / Maseratti might sell more MC12s if they did, but what do I know, I am a lowly Corvette AMATURE racer. |
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
21 Nov 2006, 23:33 (Ref:1771904) | #11 | ||
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[QUOTE=AU N EGL]TWO years latter and has the MC12 been adjusted to fit into the ACO rules for GT1 ?? QUOTE]
Exactly my point ..... it shouldnt be allowed to race in any Le Mans sanctioned series , and it doesnt anymore either !!!! |
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22 Nov 2006, 06:26 (Ref:1772009) | #12 | |||
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Car companies do not throw money down drains because the ACO thinks they should. Blame the ACO not any one else. Bob |
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22 Nov 2006, 17:50 (Ref:1772436) | #13 | ||
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How come all other privateers and manufacturers had thier cars in order , rule changes or not ?
What im saying is that it should not be allowed to race in a Le Mans sanctioned series ..... cuz it does not comply to the rules , regardless of why !!! Mazza were well aware of the changes before the car hit the track . The others were too . |
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23 Nov 2006, 02:30 (Ref:1772738) | #14 | ||
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There were FIA regs and ACO regs, both with significant differences, Remember the C5-R wasn't allowed to compete in FIA GT for many years. The ACO/FIA came to some sort of agreement, but Maserati went ahead with the MC12 in it's current state. If Saleen can cut through the crap and make their 'homologation special' ACO/FIA legal, and don't see why a major manufactuer couldn't. |
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24 Nov 2006, 03:50 (Ref:1773665) | #15 | ||
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I have an old copy of Autosport from 2001 which stated that Ratel was prepared to let BMW M3-GTR's in the FIA GT series for 2002 but Saleens and Corvettes were an absolute no-no.
You'd think if Maserati were designing and building the car that they'd have the mind to check if the rules were changing? Or that they'd ask the governing bodies to keep them updated? The governing bodies make the rules, it's up to the manufacturer to follow them. |
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24 Nov 2006, 05:14 (Ref:1773688) | #16 | |||
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That is how it was, is and always shall be. Which do you think is more important or has the upper hand, when push comes to shove? Bob |
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24 Nov 2006, 07:21 (Ref:1773726) | #17 | ||
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But that's not the point - The new Bob is absolutely correct, after all the only other alternatives are that a - You have no rukes (which won't work) or b - that you let the manufacturers set the rules (and the thought that they would agree for more than 5 minutes doesn't even begin to occur.
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24 Nov 2006, 07:45 (Ref:1773730) | #18 | |||
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24 Nov 2006, 09:36 (Ref:1773860) | #19 | ||
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Which would be a recipe for the same kind of meltdown we saw in GT1 in the late 90s.
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24 Nov 2006, 19:57 (Ref:1774306) | #20 | |||
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24 Nov 2006, 21:30 (Ref:1774345) | #21 | ||
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Because it reaches the same conclusion very quickly - He who spends the most wins the most. You in effect get a position little different to that which we have now.
You can't effectively cap budgets so those who have more money either build a better car (in some cases a much better car) and/or pour money into testing and development in pursuit of an advantage. There is no golden ticket to an ideal formula and I tend to believe that (with a couple of notable and unfortunate exceptions) the rulemakers do a very good job. A free for all might be technically interesting for about five minutes flat but it isn't the answer to the question "How do you provide close competitive racing over an extended period?" So go on Bob, just how does your 'vision' provide something worthwhile and long lasting? |
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24 Nov 2006, 22:56 (Ref:1774387) | #22 | |||
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Best team, best car, best man wins. The "free for all" worked extremely well through the eighties, and was more interesting during the early nineties than the format they have now, in which the only way an outsider can upset the cart, is if the santion penalizes someone for doing what racing was about from the very beginning into the nineties.(The brief churning of the waters by the Ferraris, 2003, which some thought was a good sign for the future, for unknown reasons, died a very quick death.) A winning format, true competition, just as it was done during the eighty plus years before contrived rules were created in the nineties, not artificial equalization. If you can't pay, you can't play. Close competitive racing, which was always, a rarity, not the norm, during what most ex-pros call the glory years, comes when two or more teams exploit the rules to create, in different manners, vehicles which at the end of the day leaves two or more cars within striking distance of the other. The past, whose rules you loath, was far different from today in that singular top classes had dozens of teams trying to make the grid, not less than a dozen on average; also not forgetting that dozens upon dozens of amateur drivers, would fill the grid when the big show came to town, to take a shot at the big boys, and earn some prize money. Along with the fact that automobile factories spent millions to win amateur prod. class national titles, for which the only thing they were paid was publicity. The more contrived the rules, the more it costs to run up front. Take away the heart of a team, its engineering expertise, and they have no reason to show up, which is being demonstrated often with todays artificial childish "fairness" doctrines. The sanctions are trying to imitate what worked for Bill France Sr., in an entirely different format, without paying the decades long dues he paid. Immitation is the greatest form of flatery, and greatest exposing of lack of original thought. Road racing suceeded by exploiting the loyalty and love of the automobile in huge portion of the US population, now it is falling flat by imitating what someone else did. Bob |
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24 Nov 2006, 23:07 (Ref:1774391) | #23 | |||
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
24 Nov 2006, 23:16 (Ref:1774399) | #24 | |||
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Remember when Roger Penske was up and coming, he did not have the biggest budget, but by being the simply best prepared team, period, he beat teams who had far more money and testing ability than he did. Sadly money is a prime ingredient, but how that money is applied, is the determining factor, current results from Pro-Drive, verses past results, makes that point quite well. Bob |
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25 Nov 2006, 01:03 (Ref:1774451) | #25 | ||
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I don't agree that it did work very well through the eighties. We had half a decade of sportscars rssentially being dominated by one of car - just how is that any different from now? - It was only later in the decade when things got more varied and competitive and then the FIA came along and shafted it.
I'm sorry but I just don't buy the "Remember when it was great" idea - It still is great for the most part and the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s had more than their fair share of bad rules, bad cars and boring races too |
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