Is going back to a Willman/JPX really a good idea?

[GT1]

Buchnam, aside from having the most disorganized pitstop in the field at Lime Rock, appear to want and try to make the Willman work. Courage dumped it and while the Nissan is showing it's age, surely a Judd or even the unreliable AER engine would be better.

The signs were there again in Lime Rock. The team changed engines after an apparent crack in the block before the race.

[paul-collins]

Courage dumped it? :confused:

Courage (factory and Epsilon) dumped the JPX, which is a similar block, but Epsilon picked up the Willman (run as IES) while the factory picked up the AER engine.

[nsxr]

this is why the rules need to be changed to allow the p2 cars to use gt class engines. it would be better for everyone. the class would be faster and could go the distance in a 24hour race. this goes for p1 cars too. they should be allowed to use the gts class engines. they 've got almost the same power and fuel mileage as a p1 car . this would open up the field greatly and allow for more competitive cars to compete.plus the idea of a ferrari powered p1 is just too good. come on this is a no brainer. why this hasnt been done before is just amazing. maybe in time

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by nsxr
this is why the rules need to be changed to allow the p2 cars to use gt class engines. it would be better for everyone. the class would be faster and could go the distance in a 24hour race. this goes for p1 cars too. they should be allowed to use the gts class engines.

Allow?

5.1 - Engine specifications :     “LM”P1               “LM”P2

5.1.1 - Engine:                    free           free       homologated (*)
5.1.2 - Displacement limit
a/ Normally aspirated engines      6000 cm3       3400 cm3      4000 cm3
                                               8 cyl. maximum

(*) No stressed engine homologated in “LM”GT and
    complying with the “LM”GT technical rules.

-ACO 2004 LMP regulations page 6

So GT engines are explicitly allowed in LMP2, up to 4L (which rules out the Panoz, but nothing else). Nothing says "no GTS engines" other than the 6L limit for LMP1, though. So a Ferrari 550 motor could be used if worthy.

[paul-collins]

Incidentally, the homologated engine gets a single restrictor size (44.7 mm for a single one), rather than a sliding scale, but there are only two GT configurations that have a larger restrictions - both 1300kg minimum, with engines 3.2 and 3.4L size. So the power should be higher for LMP2s than for GTs (imagine what a 44.7 instead of 40.9 would do for a 911GT3RSR motor), and add in the fact that the weight should be 750 kg instead of 1100 kg (curb weight of the 911 GT3RSR).

Why is it that no one is trying this?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by paul-collins
Incidentally, the homologated engine gets a single restrictor size (44.7 mm for a single one), rather than a sliding scale, but there are only two GT configurations that have a larger restrictions - both 1300kg minimum, with engines 3.2 and 3.4L size. So the power should be higher for LMP2s than for GTs (imagine what a 44.7 instead of 40.9 would do for a 911GT3RSR motor), and add in the fact that the weight should be 750 kg instead of 1100 kg (curb weight of the 911 GT3RSR).

Why is it that no one is trying this?

I have been asking that question all year, paul-collins.....

Particularly when I look at the ALMS LMP2 Class, I recall a saying that a former boss of mine had:

"When everyone is thinking alike, then someone is not thinking"

I think it would be a reliable,cost-effective and most of all, effective approach to power in this class...

So....

Does anyone know WHY someone ISN'T doing this????

[jhansen]

Are you certain that the Porsche 911 engine, or other GT engines are indeed cost effective?

[Tim Northcutt]

Compared to other purpose-built race engines??

I'd bet that it it at lease competitive with what teams are paying now for a Judd, AER or other engines....

and with the added intake opening for the restrictors, it would have very competitive power....

[jhansen]

Are the AER's really as expensive as a Judd lease? I'm just thinking out loud, and I'm not trying to prove you wrong Tim. It just doesn't make sense that a cheaper and perhaps more powerful engine solution is simply being overlooked. In my mind there has to be a reason why the P2 teams are gravitating to the same engine solution.

[Fogelhund]

I was told that an engine for an LMP2, from the existing choices would cost around $100,000.

I'm not sure what an RSR engine would run you, but you'd think it couldn't be significantly more then $100k.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by jhansen
In my mind there has to be a reason why the P2 teams are gravitating to the same engine solution.

You could raise the same issue concerning why the Judd GV-5 sat around for nearly two years before anyone in Europe finally decided to put one in a prototype....

It takes one or two teams to step outside of the box and make that change before others will do so....

Pescarolo has pretty much shown that the engine is a good choice for European circuits where it has competed thus far...

But a lot of people still ran the GV-4 until Henri and NASAMAX chose to look at the GV-5...

Let's wait and see who might "make the change" next year to that engine....

People in racing sometimes don't want to "try something different" because the growing pains from something new can cost a lot of money....

But I would think that the homologated 4 L option would be one that somebody would at least try.....after all, the GT engines we're talking about have been practically bulletproof in that class....

I'm not sure that I'm right, jhansen...but I have thought this all along since the new engine regs gave teams this option, and the restrictor sizes would give an already solid engine more air and more power....

I'd love to see someone jsut TRY it...if for no other reason, to see whether I was right or wrong.

But I have a hunch that paul-collins & I are correct on this one...

[Osella]

wasn't there a Porsche engined Harrier once?
not that that advances the topic in any particular way...

[billnchristy]

Im sure there are plenty of GT3RS lying around now that many teams have upgraded to the RSR...supposedly the only engine improvement was in airbox, which would be very different in a P2 anyways. Anyone got a porsche they would like to spare for our little expiriment?

[billnchristy]

oh yeah, and if you havent seen it yet, here is the engine that was put into the Bucknum car (or taken out as it might be?)

http://www.pbase.com/image/31020718

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally posted by Osella
wasn't there a Porsche engined Harrier once?

Yes!

[KA]

Thinking about this question of using GT engines in LMP2, particularly the Porsche, could it simply be a question of putting the JPX or Willman engine (or even a Judd V8)) into something like a Pilbeam or Lola B2K/40 being easier than fitting a Porsche flat-6 in terms of the chassis modifications required? Most of these cars seem to have been originally designed to take the Nissan V6, so without taking the time to check out the vee-angles etc of the various engines, presumably the JPX etc are a fairly easy fit?

From memory, didn't Gunnar try putting a Porsche into a B2K/40 for LMP675 in ALMS a couple of years ago and run into some kind of problem with the regulations because of the amount of changes they had to make to the chassis?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by KA
Thinking about this question of using GT engines in LMP2, particularly the Porsche, could it simply be a question of putting the JPX or Willman engine (or even a Judd V8)) into something like a Pilbeam or Lola B2K/40 being easier than fitting a Porsche flat-6 in terms of the chassis modifications required? Most of these cars seem to have been originally designed to take the Nissan V6, so without taking the time to check out the vee-angles etc of the various engines, presumably the JPX etc are a fairly easy fit?

From memory, didn't Gunnar try putting a Porsche into a B2K/40 for LMP675 in ALMS a couple of years ago and run into some kind of problem with the regulations because of the amount of changes they had to make to the chassis?

You make excellent points, KA...I did not recall Gunnar's foray with a Porsche engine, but if modifications would require homologation work, it could prove to be a problem and an issue I did not forsee...

On Another Note -- The Harrier.....

Two Questions:

1. How competitive was that Harrier with that engine, and what kind of restrictors did it have to run???

2. For a low-budget team, would that Harrier with the Porsche engine be an LMP2 option to compete with???? I would think that the chassis would need a ton of revision, but I don't know....

[paul-collins]

It's surprising that the SR2 chassis wouldn't be able to fit the best (N-)GT motor in it, considering these "homologated" motors have been legal in the class since its inception (albeit up to a max of 4.2L in FIA form prior to this year). You'd think someone would have come up with a chassis to take these motors. After all, they're to be unstressed, so it's basically drop in and go!

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by paul-collins
It's surprising that the SR2 chassis wouldn't be able to fit the best (N-)GT motor in it, considering these "homologated" motors have been legal in the class since its inception (albeit up to a max of 4.2L in FIA form prior to this year). You'd think someone would have come up with a chassis to take these motors. After all, they're to be unstressed, so it's basically drop in and go!

On the surface, I would agree, paul-collins, but the cylinder angles, and the width of the engine in relation to the cowling that covers it (particularly when comparing the Porsche engine to something like a Nissan) might require modification....I don't know for sure, but nothing is as easy as it may seem on the surface...

Otherwise, you and I seem to be the "flagbearers" for this approach, and if it can be fitted properly, I don't see why more teams wouldn't consider it....

[Tim Northcutt]

On another thread, I've asked Rick, a driver with the TracSport team that raced at the Ring last weekend his thoughts concerning this discussion, and to respond to us..

[RickP:Clio51]

Tim asked me to add my views on this and I think there's a couple of points that strike me: Cost. Cost. Cost
1) Cost... a Le Mans spec 911 engine is about £30,000 the AER is similar I think. As I understand it, a Porsche needs rebuilding every 30 hours, the AER will run longer than this and is MUCH cheaper to rebuild (half as much).
2) Weight: I think you'd pay quite a weight penalty running a 911 engine compared to the very compact AER (but I don't know)
3) This would affect the balance of the chassis quite badly
4) This is assuming you could get something else to fit into the chassis anyway...
Hope that helps a little, must admit I'm not the tech spec expert and you guys seem pretty clued in compared to me on this.
Cheers Rick

[paul-collins]

For reference, the KV675 weighs 120 kg, and promises ~500 bhp at 9000 rpm (redline 10500). That includes flywheel but not clutch alternator or exhausts.

I haven't been able to track down weight for the flat 6. Would it be able to deliver enough horses with the increased restrictor? In ALMS trim the RS apparently got 420 bhp @ 8200 rpm.

[jhansen]

If you go to this link, the second car down that is listed for sale is a Lola B2K-40 with a Porsche flat six turbo motor taken from a 962. They used a GT-1 transmission. Is this the car Gunnar experimented with? At any rate, it looks like they got a flat six to fit. But weight may well be a large factor as Rick pointed out.

http://962.com/historic_porsches/index.htm

[Tim Northcutt]

Please note that the Homologated GT Class engines for LMP2 must be normally-aspirated....

Here is a pic I shot at Mid-Ohio...from the looks of it, this is a Porsche Flat-Six, isn't it???

The two guys lifting it looked too busy for me to ask them...

But the engine looks pretty compact....

I have another shot on disc that I can send this afternoon...provided someone can confirm that it IS the Porsche flat-six...

[jhansen]

Yeah, I know they have to be normally aspirated, but the block is very similar, that was my point. So it can fit. How many modifications it took is another question.