VSCC chat

[ecurie]

Am I alone in thinking that the we are sadly missing a bit of good VSCC discussion on both this site and (especially) on the official VSCC site?

Everything seems to have got a bit turgid and we need to get some interest back into things...

Do my fellow VSCC web chatters agree??

[listernoble]

Yes I most certainly do agree that all is quiet on the vintage front,especially missing the technical stuff.
i find 10/10ths interesting because it is not limited to just VSCC members and thus not so introspective in outlook
Lister

[BugEyed]

Ecurie

I can't help but agree with you - there is too little VSCC chat on the web. As you know, I've no intention of returning to "the other place" and will leave that to the people responsible to deal with.

Ten-Tenths is an excellent Forum but there are neither enough regular VSCC posters here to keep the threads going nor is it the appropriate place to discuss either controversial matters or private events. So, the next event that really fits here is Curborough. Do you fancy starting a thread on that great event?

Duncan

[listernoble]

My next event in the 1969 G17 is Loton this coming Easter weekend,with quite a lot of historic cars competing I hope it is sunnier than last weekend at Prescott.
It was good to quite a lot of Bugatti's out though, despite the cold and wet.
I must try an get into a VSCC event sometime this year with the Riley,I would like to do Shelsley but hear that it is most likey I will get a refusal due to over subscription.
Lister

[BugEyed]

Lister

There is a technical section here on Ten-Tenths, why not try asking your questions there? It is a little chicken and egg - there isn't much "vintage" chat there to watch as not many threads are being started, but when threads are started not enough people are looking to get a decent range of answers.

The Shelsley event is actually run by the MAC who do most of the work in deciding entries. However, they seem to think that Riley 9's are too slow so they tend not to allow many of them into the event. However, your other Shelsley experience may stand you in good stead. Why not enter for Wiscombe, Harewood or Loton where you have a much better chance of getting an entry?

Duncan

[hodsonaj]

As another ex VSCC forumiste I have to say that I find the range of topics discussed here more interesting than the VSCC site. Much as I enjoy my pre war cars and the things I can do with them they are only a part of a much larger scene, elements of which I enjoy as much as VSCC stuff.
Perhaps though the lack of VSCC chat here is symptomatic of a greater ill in that interest in such old cars may be fading gradually as we old so and so's grow older with fewer young folk seemingly interested in taking up the banner. It seems to be a problem in interesting people in cars and personalities that they did not see in action for themselves. I am not sure what the answer is as going to a VSCC race meeting these days to see many Austin 7 and Riley specials built in last few years does little to fire a young man's imagination - at least I found that to be so in the case of my 18 year old son!
Hope this is not too far off topic!
Tony Hodson

[listernoble]

I'm sure that there will always be quite a number of people interested in old cars, just the same with traction engines,vintage tractors and steam engines ,old planes etc.
We don't have to worry,I think it will just continue to happen!
Lister

[pvmw]

Originally posted by listernoble
I'm sure that there will always be quite a number of people interested in old cars.............
Lister

I have a theory, wot is mine and belongs to me!!!

I am the current custodian of a 1923 flat twin Rover "8", a car of almost no practical use and lots of charm (small children collapse in hysterics when they see it pass). I recently attended a large anniversary Rover event and was struck by the fact there was almost no-one there under 50. There weren't even many family members of the owners. There was simply no next generation showing an interest.

I think that people with an interest in cars, when they get a bit of spare money, often are interested in what they associate with their childhood. The cars of the '30s and '40s are not really of interest to the current generation in that position, they are looking at cars of the ‘50s and ‘60s. I sometimes take a Frazer Nash or an Austin 7 in to work, and there are plenty of engineering graduates and fairly well-off youngsters who are curious about them - but they have absolutely no interest in owning something that old. Conversely, within 15 feet of my desk there are 4 people who own an MGB or a Midget so the interest in “classic cars” is there.

What this means is that I suspect in a few years the more mundane cars of the '30s and '40s are going to become almost worthless - after all, who would actually WANT a '30s Standard 9 for example. Restoration/repair costs aren't ever going to go down so I can see cars actually being junked. For example, it is still possible to find '30s Rovers being broken for parts.

Also, modern cars are simply so much better/easier to drive than old ones that less people seem prepared to put up with the, er......, idiosyncrasies of old cars - wind noise, dodgy brakes, dubious handling etc. - unless they have been brought up with them. People are also less skilled in the mechanics of driving them. I recently sold a vintage Vauxhall. Finding a buyer wasn’t easy, and several of the potential purchasers went away embarrassed 'cos they couldn't actually change gear in it (there were also some who couldn't come to terms with the rear wheel only brakes, operated by the handbrake – can’t imagine why not!!). Drivers brought up exclusively on modern cars would find managing such a device an enormous shock and many would either be unprepared or unable to come to terms with it.

The solution? I haven't got one. I think there will always be a market for the more exotic classics and vintage cars, but I think the writing might be on the wall for a lot of the '30s and '40s stuff.

[eclectic]

Was it an early 30/98? didn't know they had such an odd braking system!

[TimD]

I think eclectic hit on a perfect way of enthusing newcomers. A year on, I'm still twitching at the memory of learning how to control that wonderful Stutz. The key thing is that it didn't put me off the idea of one day owning and conducting an Edwardian motor car.

For my money, as a 36 year old car enthusiast, I've no interest in going down the MGB/Morris Minor route. I'd happily drive a pre-war Rover. The trick is in learning how to look after it properly, and I think there is a definite learning gap out there. We just don't get told how to do it.

I'm not sure I'm too concerned about the survival of such cars though - at least not as concerned as I am about some later cars anyway. The phrase was "broken for spares", the implication being that the bits go on to further the lives of other cars. Pity the fifties unitary construction machines though. Have you seen how many sound, restorable Rover P4s, Ford Zephyrs and MG Magnettes are still, in 2004, being used up on the banger tracks of the UK? There is little money in them and even less interest it seems.

As for this forum - keep contributing things and the interest will flow. There are non-VSCC people out there who are interested in what you have to say, including at least two owners of "modern" MGs that I can think of...

[pvmw]

I wish it was, I'd not have sold it! It was its bigger brother, a "D" Type. From a distance looked the same as a Velox bodied 30/98 but rather like approaching a mountain - the closer you got the bigger it became.

Mechanically very similar to 30/98 with same sidevalve engine and g/gox but a touring car and not a sports car, and a lot bigger and heavier. (I've always been astonished at how little room there is in a 30/98). Under-rated car tho'. it was a superb tourer, it would cruise at 60 and do 70 which is impressive for 1921, but it suffered from being compared with the 30/98 and the performance just wasn't in the same league.

Brakes were same as early "E" Type. Handbrake operated the drums on the rear (16" x 2" so thay were pretty good) and a foot operated transmission brake which was best ignored. At least the pedals were in the "normal" position, unlike the 30/98. I never understood how a company could have 2 cars, in production at the same time, with different pedal layout. Must have given the delivery drivers a headache!!!

[eclectic]

Sadly the Stutz is up for sale, but only because I have embarked on a project to recreate the chain driven,12 litre, Brasier Race car of 1908. The original engine will probably never be found so I'm substituting a Hispano Suiza aero V8 of 12 litres, circa 1917.

According to the factory data it supplies 220hp at 1,500 rpm 550 ft lbs of torque, and it revs up to 2,200 rpm!

[listernoble]

Sounds rather exciting,I love seeing the aero engine cars on hillclimbs,real torque and massive wheelspin at around 1000 rpm.
Especially Mark Walker,who is a real performer and crowd pleaser with his driving.
When do you reckon car will be finished?
Lister

[eclectic]

That depends on how quickly the Stutz sells, but about 15 months if the funds flow.

We will be fitting it with narrow tyres on the theory that if am too heavy footed the wheels will spin rather than a gear or halfshaft to the sprocket break!

So I should be able to spin my rear wheels in any gear and at almost any speed!

We are trying to gear it for an ultimate speed of 110 mph, the original car was timed at Brooklands at a little over 101 mph over 6 laps in 1908.

[jwd]

Phwoar, Mike! What a delicious beast. No not you! The car! Can I volunteer to bounce when you trial it? All joking apart, mon vieux, this is surely the answer to all those Riley Special builders. Recreate a period design.
Wouldn't it be great to get some of those brilliant leviathans recreated to run at a competitive pace? Chariots of Fire Club? Get Geraint co-opted as long as he gets Babs out on track more often.

They take me away and give me drinks to calm me down, sometimes.
"....back to Gasoline Alley where I dream on"

[eclectic]

I found the Brasier chassis and axles in Australia, suitable unidentified gearbox in Switzerland, the engine in Minneapolis where it had a history in a racing boat in the 1920s & 30s, and the original, well used and battered, radiator here in France. All in the last six months!

There is an excellent article, in French only unfortunately, that has a photo of the very similar Gordon Bennett car here:-

http://gazoline.net/rubrique.pcgi?id_rubrique=6

[NickReeve]

Going back to Ecurie's first post.... I'd certainly agree that the VSCC side of things here has slowed up and its been enjoyable reading this thread. As far as the official site is concerned, there does seem to be plenty of activity, but (and more senior members of the Club may correct me on this) there seems to be a focus principally on internal affairs (AGMs, policy on racing etc etc) which while interesting is a bit baffling for someone who's only been a member for a couple of months. The technical stream is picking up somewhat and I have to admit that its this area that appeals to me more than most. Being relatively new to this pre-war lark, I find that most of the engineering involved is fairly intuitive but every now and then there's a whole area (like wood frames and ally panelling) that I know absolutely bog all about. I'd agree with Duncan, some techie discussion here would be interesting. I have made the odd posting on Racing Technology, but not being a racer my contributions are limited.......

[Peter Mallett]

Not being a member of the VSCC I find these threads to be an interesting insight into one of British Motorsport's institutions.

The "specials" thing is a bugbear of mine. Ilike to see the originals racing. Even though specials have existed since day one the formulea for including them in a race has changed (witness special saloons), so when I see them on the same track as a "standard" car I find it a bit peculiar.

[ecurie]

Mr Bugeyed -

Curborough is an elusive beast indeed. According to the latest main site thread on the subject, we are going to Lincolnshire, and we have to deliver our entries by hand on Bank Holiday Monday. Good Luck to all!!!!

[pvmw]

Originally posted by TimD

For my money, as a 36 year old car enthusiast, I've no interest in going down the MGB/Morris Minor route. I'd happily drive a pre-war Rover.........

Careful what you say, I might find you one! Actually, using a pre-war Rover as an example for my argument probably wasn’t a very good one. There are plenty of them out there and they are reliable and simple to maintain, tho’ there still aren’t many that are owned by “younger” enthusiasts (ie. Anyone under 50!!!). There are always a few for sale, and I don’t see many people lining up to buy them. I think they do suffer from being seen as a bit boring – a bank manager/family doctor car. My comment is probably better directed at things like ‘40s Standards, Morrises, Wolseleys etc.

The trouble with the fifties unitary construction stuff is that once rust has got a real hold they can be almost unrestorable at any price – and certainly not economically. While I wouldn’t want to own one myself it’d be a pity if there were no examples left – if only to show the youth of tomorrow what appalling taste in cars their grandparents had!!! Not always, I hasten to add. My Father had a Mk 9 Jag. – an absolutely fabulous car, but I haven’t seen one on the road for decades. They can’t all have rusted away, but their owners never use them. In my area I know of only one P4 and one ‘50s Wolseley that are daily drivers.

There used to be plenty of P4s about but you hardly ever see them now. They aren’t actually uncommon. Go to a Rover P4 rally and there are rows and rows of them, it’s just they don’t get used any more. When I had mine, they were simply a cheap indestructible barge for towing the trailer with the Austin 7 on it. Now people sit in fields and polish them. I’ve even heard owners saying they don’t use them much or go far in them ‘cos they are an old car and aren’t reliable like a modern – which is nonsense, the P4 must be one of the most unbreakable cars ever made!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by TimD
I think eclectic hit on a perfect way of enthusing newcomers. A year on, I'm still twitching at the memory of learning how to control that wonderful Stutz. The key thing is that it didn't put me off the idea of one day owning and conducting an Edwardian motor car.

I've also been given the opportunity to drive a vintage machine. Great fun but i wonder if that experience if given to a non enthusiast will change the perspective?

Originally posted by TimD
For my money, as a 36 year old car enthusiast, I've no interest in going down the MGB/Morris Minor route. .

Well you know about my MGB and you also know what I race. For me the BMC route is the best way to get "history" back on the streets.

Originally posted by TimD
I'm not sure I'm too concerned about the survival of such cars though - at least not as concerned as I am about some later cars anyway. The phrase was "broken for spares", the implication being that the bits go on to further the lives of other cars. Pity the fifties unitary construction machines though. Have you seen how many sound, restorable Rover P4s, Ford Zephyrs and MG Magnettes are still, in 2004, being used up on the banger tracks of the UK? There is little money in them and even less interest it seems.

Now here I have to tell you it was only the management who sensibly made me pay my taxes, that stopped me from buying a Magnette and building it for (let's say) Goodwood.

Originally posted by TimD
As for this forum - keep contributing things and the interest will flow. There are non-VSCC people out there who are interested in what you have to say, including at least two owners of "modern" MGs that I can think of...

Couldn't agree more. As a racer of more "modern" stuff I still carry a 1980's picture in my mind of an 8 litre(?) Bentley trying not to understeer into the boonies at the old "club Woodcote" at Silverstone!

[Richard Houlgate]

My concern with the future use of old cars is that no one will know how to fix them. My kids show no interest, although the younger is keen to drive. And with the relablity of modern cars there is little incentive to find out how they work.
When I started motoring I had to fix my Morris Minor otherwise it didn't go!

[eclectic]

That trouble will come a lot sooner for the collectors of modern stuff, ten year old software controlling engines of racecars is so outdated that it is often impossible to even start the engine of a Le Mans car from the early 1990s without replacing the CPU and completely remapping the engine!

At least we can still adjust the tickover on our cars by turning a screw, ten years ago the tickover on my Audi went crazy, they had to replace a chip, £112 plus fitting, £12 plus VAT. All it did was to prevent the engine from revving too hard under cold ie choke conditions, I asked they why it was there at all, 'fuel economy' was the reply! It must save a heck of a lot of fuel!!!

[jwd]

We're getting to the off-topic status, but don't you think that one day soon someone will start to demystify CPU technology? It seems so obvious to map the desirable characteristics and hold the data base on a chip/PC and therefore to make it generally available. The DIY engine mapping is beginning to happen. I mentioned to a 'nerd' that I owned a Formula 750 race engine and he lit up because he had done the mapping for a similar motor and could offer a CPU to go with the electronic ignition on this (now road going and reliable) Darvi-Reliant. The man hours for tuning. fiddling and fettling were reduced to make the CPU route cheaper. I want another Darvi, now. I sold the first engine to the nerd.
Plug and play CPU's will happen. They are opening possibilities that keep those Le Mans cars alive.
Now. Mike, are you coming to Silverstone? What music will you be listening to?

[BugEyed]

Jim's experience with the "nerd" is not unique. In the world of Subarus there is a large cross over with computer people, and one set about writing software to remap the Subaru (and lots of other cars as it turned out) ECU. He succeeded in his quest, and now lots of people use the software to adjust the tuning as they modify the cars.

Modern road cars could be claimed to be easier to tune than older ones - the mapping software can be used on the fly without having to get near the engine (so whilst someone else drives, or if on the testbed without having to work on an engine at 12,000 rpm as we used to with Cosworth DFVs), it provides feedback as to what is happening (the Subaru for example has a very accurate wide band oxygen sensor fitted as standard) and the software includes data logging facilities to actually measure the cars performance. Changes can be made and then undone if they don't work - unlike filing the needles on an SU. Understandably, this appeals to some of the modern enthusiasts.

Oh, and some of the "nerds" that use the software - Ecuries very own Prodrive. And the individual that did the original work now has a very healthy business - Ecutek.

See you all at Silverstone - although I'm off to the Scottish Trial this weekend.



Duncan