More disagreements abt Q...

Gt_R · 18 May 2005, 09:31 (Ref:1303588)

As the dissatisfaction with the current qualifying system grows, it seems like teams, FIA, and Bernie are struggling to find ways to solve the problem.

Not too long ago, Bernie called for a change in the qualifying format, after fans, media, newspaper and sports personalities agreed that the current qualifiying system is messy and unwelcomed.

Williams is the most recent of teams (in F1racing.net) to voice their discontent and pleaded for a change. It is known that some other teams are similarly lobbying for a change.

However, it is understood that Mclaren and Renault are two teams who blocks any such changes. They insist that they would not approve to any changes which would change the nature of qualifying from the current format, the reason believed to be they felt they would be disadvantaged due to the fuel-tank size.

As such, once again, we have improvements not being allowed to carry through as teams hold different opinions.

Well, for the better of the sport... i honestly think that the current qualifying ought to be changed asap. Forget the politics, it is the qualifying/race which is the end-product which fans follow and consume. If they do not even understand what goes on in the race, or can't even follow the event properly, it won't be good for the sports at all.

**Adam43** · 18 May 2005, 09:54 (Ref:1303602)

Yes the sticking point is the fuel tank. Teams with bigger tanks would be at an advantage. Most wouldn't have the opportunity to do one stops. Ferrari culd at Spain if you could fill up to the brim and not do Q2 (in Rubens case).

Gt_R the choice of teams that might object (or would be at a disadvantage) is in contridiction to what Williams said in their views on the matter:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Williams

The problem is that some cars have smaller tanks than others. McLaren, maybe BAR, and Ferrari can cover longer distances, and have more fuel on board after qualifying.

http://www.autosport-atlas.com/news.aspx?id=44259&s=5

Kicking-back · 18 May 2005, 10:06 (Ref:1303612)

Quotes I read from Frank Williams in another article said Ferrari, McLaren and BAR would have been happy to change to low fuel session only, because they have big tanks, and it was the other teams who didn't want to.

Simplest solution in the short term would be to move the Saturday session to Friday and the Sunday one to Saturday - at least that way we'll know the pole man the night before the race.

Gt_R · 18 May 2005, 10:15 (Ref:1303615)

Hmm..seems like there's many contradictory reports.

I've heard Flavio and Ron make comments about not supporting such changes.

Frank says Mclaren might have gained an advantage if they change.

Todt says Flavio and Ron refuse to agree to changes because they feel disadvantaged, and suggest a common fuel tank to solve the problem.

So who's on who's side? lol

I think the least they could do is to settle the qualifying by saturday latest. First Q on Sat morning, 2nd after noon.

Friday be a full test day, with everyone allowed running a third car which must be the spare car.

BootsOntheSide · 18 May 2005, 11:44 (Ref:1303680)

The entire 2005 car design process was made under the basis that this year's qualifying system would involve running Q2 on race fuel. Any move away from that would make heavier-fuel strategies an option again, and would be unfair on teams who haven't deszigned the car aroudn that. There's no way a 'common fuel tank' is an option, as no standard deisgn could fit into each fo teh 10 differnet cars without affecting the erodynamics and performance in 10 different ways. For 2006 some chances can be made, but for now we're stuck with having 2 qualifying sessions (which all the teams agreed to, incidentally).

Moving Q2 back to Saturday is an option, but the difficulty would be fitting it around all the other sessions, including the GP2 races whicha re scheduled to start an hour after Q1 ends.

Kicking-back · 18 May 2005, 12:18 (Ref:1303698)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Moving Q2 back to Saturday is an option, but the difficulty would be fitting it around all the other sessions, including the GP2 races whicha re scheduled to start an hour after Q1 ends.

Plenty of time if we have Q1 on Friday afternoon, then Q2 in the slot vacated by the present Q1 on Saturday

Gt_R · 18 May 2005, 13:41 (Ref:1303749)

How about substituting the whole qualifying with a 45mins free for all format where every driver is allowed to make just 2 consecutive Q laps. NO refuelling in between laps. If the teams are satisfied with 1 lap, they can come in and save one lap worth of fuel, if not they can bang in a 2nd lap before coming in. But there's only one opportunity to go out within the 45min window. The qualifying will still be done with race-fuel on board, so no refuelling after the q session.

This would ensure that teams with the 'wrong' fuel tank size wouldn't be disadvantaged, while rewarding drivers who can put one solid Q lap. It can even mix up the field abit. I believe this would be the closest we can get back to the old qualifying format for this season.

BootsOntheSide · 18 May 2005, 14:00 (Ref:1303758)

That could work Gt_R, and is surely an option for 2006, but I still think it's too drastic a change to make mid-season. When you're runnign a series of races as a championship, they all need to run under a very simialr or identical system if the season is to have coherent meaning. KB's idea is better, but it would mean losing an hour of practice time, unless the sessions are condensed much more closely. Ultimately I think 2005 is goign pretty well, despite a lot of misgivings pre-season about the new systems,a dn they should be given a full season to gel and be proven in a range of situations before being cemented or discarded.

Mr V · 18 May 2005, 14:39 (Ref:1303787)

Ron and Flavio aren't going to agree to it because they have the best 2 cars in F1, which means they are more likely to win than the others, which means they gain track position in quali 1, which gives them an advantage, it's as simple as that imo.

This quali system doesn't just effect one weekend, it effects more than that. That was the reason JPM was so desperate to come back in Spain, grab some points and grab a better slot for quali 1 in Monaco.

rameire · 19 May 2005, 09:02 (Ref:1304368)

How about scraping the Qualifying altogether.
Instead the Teams can use Friday ,Saturday and Sunday Morning to test the cars, without restrictions to Tyres, Engines or Fuel.
And the Starting Grid on Sunday will be decided by the previous Race,
Although Pole Position will be decided by the First Retirement or Last Position,
and Second will be the Second last Driver and so on and so forth, so the Last Position will be the Winner of the Previous Race.
The only bad thing about this is if a Driver, Lets say Sato, who is driving in 9th with 20 laps to go and 15 cars left in the race, and he realises that it is impossible for him to make up time and score a point, and he decides to retire suddenly, he will then start in 6th in the next race, This would be the problem.
One way to combat this would be to Give points to every driver who finishes the race, or who is competitively driving in the race at the end of the race, and to give no points to any driver who has retired or who does not finish the Race.

BootsOntheSide · 19 May 2005, 12:30 (Ref:1304535)

How would you define finishing the race anyway? As it stands you are classified as a finisher if oyu complete 90% of the race distance, so cars whicha ren't running at the end fo the race could be classified ahead of cars which are. The whole idea goes against the entire history of F1, and would put too big a penalty on success. The race before Monaco there would be a massive temptation to play for Moanco pole instead of any kind of result, whcih would jsut short-change the fans and reduce the significance of each race and its victory.

rameire · 19 May 2005, 12:44 (Ref:1304554)

Very true, but I suppose people are looking for an alternative, and its an Idea, if ideas start rolling greater things will come of them.

Sodemo · 19 May 2005, 13:20 (Ref:1304584)

Apparently a new qualifying setup will come into play as of The European GP, with just Saturday as qualifying.

Knowlesy · 19 May 2005, 17:56 (Ref:1304733)

Funny how Ferrari didn't want quali changed last season. Hmm....

Pingguest · 19 May 2005, 18:16 (Ref:1304751)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

Apparently a new qualifying setup will come into play as of The European GP, with just Saturday as qualifying.

I just read that the qualifying must be done with race fuel and setup.

Jordi · 19 May 2005, 20:38 (Ref:1304878)

To be honest, for the fan at the track qualifying in the morning isn't so bad. Coupled with GP2, the hours of waiting for something to happen are over. But then again, the important fans seem to be the ones on TV.

**Adam43** · 19 May 2005, 23:00 (Ref:1304976)

It seems that they are still trying to change this, but the (reasonable) sticking points as discussed above are still present.

Marbot · 20 May 2005, 00:01 (Ref:1305001)

BE is this weekend (Monaco) trying yet again to change qually,maybe in time for the European GP! here

JeremySmith · 20 May 2005, 02:14 (Ref:1305032)

Bernie is trying to go for a one session qualifying, but comprising of just one quick lap? I do not like that idea myself, I would like to see a one hour 12 lap maximum session held on Saturday.

Don K · 20 May 2005, 05:20 (Ref:1305073)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rameire

The only bad thing about this is if a Driver, Lets say Sato, who is driving in 9th with 20 laps to go and 15 cars left in the race, and he realises that it is impossible for him to make up time and score a point, and he decides to retire suddenly, he will then start in 6th in the next race, This would be the problem.

Another bad thing about that would be that it creates 190 artificial overtaking situations.

And the real race cannot start before those ovetakings have been settled.
As most races would end before those 190 overtakings have taken place, the WDC would become a lottery rather than a championships.

Another bad thing would be that those 190 artificial overtaking situations are bound to produce lots of incidents, and therefore probably lots of accidents and pace car situations, taking away yet more of the racing.

And of course, with such a situation at the start, we won't see many races in which the field gets by the first corner without an accident.