March 792 (Test Case - Not a 782!)

MATTinSURREY · 11 Dec 2006, 15:20 (Ref:1788065)

Hi All,

I've just bought a March 782, chassis number 26. The car is in remarkably good and original condition but the problem I have is with previous ownership.

Reading this excellent thread, chassis 26 was originally Steven South's car in 1978 and then passed to Russell in 1979 complete with Aycliffe sponsorship.

However the Swedish FIA papers that come with it state the original owner as Ingo Hoffman!

Am I right in believing that FIA papers are not guaranteed to be 100% perfect/accurate or god forbid should I question the statistics from the gallant contributors to this thread?

Many thanks

Matt

driftwood · 11 Dec 2006, 16:02 (Ref:1788095)

I would not trust anything these scallywags say
some are worse than others !!
As for Fia papers back when the car had its papers there was no web and no way to quickly liase with people for info so a bit of anything goes
i would be more inclined to follow the chain of ownership from the swedish museum back to UK names
your car has the 792 addition to the nose its possible that this happened for the 79-80 f2 season to make the old car look " modern" or if it was sprints hiclimbed it could well have happened then
If you want to persist in your membership to this club you do need to get somehistorical racing books plus 30 years of Autosports to support the arguements and a special anorak

The 2 best F2 vooks are Tristan woods book ( i have spare copy to sell) and the Italian book form 1980 but its very expensive and expect to pay £60-100 for a copy ( as i reluctantly did but then my copy has Bruno Jack O`Malley autograph in it ) The AS mags are the best things to get also they did seperate end of season reviews Autocourse is ok but Single seater and Voiturette racing books (1977 -81 issue) will set u back a few quid rare now but useful
So far i have spent £2-300 for you on F2 race books!!

Adam Ferrington · 11 Dec 2006, 19:12 (Ref:1788229)

At the risk of giving a straight answer to a straight question :-

March build records show 782-26 as being delivered in June 1982 for Stephen South.
The two Ron Dennis cars (one of which would have been for Hoffmann) were built much earlier in the year as they did a full F2 season, and were chassis -13 and -14.
If you can find a tub/monocoque number on your car (in the form 8Mxx) PM me and I will confirm whether it matches the details shown for 782-26 in the March records.

Chris Townsend · 11 Dec 2006, 19:40 (Ref:1788243)

In addition to Adam's evidence from the March records, F1R record for the 1978 F2 season also shows South's car to be chassis 26 [that hopefully saved a few quid on the black book] and Autosport gives the chassis number in press reports for Russell's car, whilst also describing it as 'ex South'

Chris

CScott · 11 Dec 2006, 22:42 (Ref:1788424)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MATTinSURREY

Hi All,

I've just bought a March 782, chassis number 26. The car is in remarkably good and original condition but the problem I have is with previous ownership.

Reading this excellent thread, chassis 26 was originally Steven South's car in 1978 and then passed to Russell in 1979 complete with Aycliffe sponsorship.

However the Swedish FIA papers that come with it state the original owner as Ingo Hoffman!

Am I right in believing that FIA papers are not guaranteed to be 100% perfect/accurate or god forbid should I question the statistics from the gallant contributors to this thread?

Many thanks

Matt

Hi,
I might be wrong, but I have been watching this car for some 12 months, in adds around the world, I think you may find that it is a 792, not a 782 ,
the roll over hoop, is 792 , side pods, and I dont rember the 782s having rocker arm front suspention, as I say I might be wrong!

znarfg · 12 Dec 2006, 09:21 (Ref:1788751)

Hi all,
Cscott isn't wrong. 782-26 is a 792. The first March with rocker front suspention and fuel cell behind the driver.
Merry Xmas to all
znarfg

Steve Wilkinson · 12 Dec 2006, 11:23 (Ref:1788842)

Quote:

Originally Posted by znarfg

Hi all,
Cscott isn't wrong. 782-26 is a 792. The first March with rocker front suspention and fuel cell behind the driver.
Merry Xmas to all
znarfg

So what does this infer?

A) March chassis 782-26 started life as a 782 and then at some point was 'upgraded' to 792 spec?
B) The March chassis 782-26 was actually built as a 792 and wrongly plated?
C) Someone got hold of Chassis plate 782-26 and stuck it on a 792?
D) March 782-26 was shunted then rebuilt on a 792 tub?

The possibilities are almost endless!

allenbrown · 12 Dec 2006, 11:34 (Ref:1788855)

znarfg, I really don't understand your last post. What do you mean that 782-26 is a 792? Do you mean that the car Matt has bought is actually a 792 wearing the wrong plate?

Allen

MATTinSURREY · 12 Dec 2006, 11:48 (Ref:1788875)

I've just PM'd znarfg with exactly the same questions. If I'm reading his post correctly then it sounds like 782-26 was one of the last 1978 F2 cars March made and as such could have incorporated some of the revisions that were introduced in 1979 on to the 792.

Can anyone also tell me where I should look for the tub number Adam refers to above.

Many thanks

Matt

phdm · 12 Dec 2006, 12:08 (Ref:1788891)

Marches had a number stamped below the roll hoop, usually on the left side IIRC, so the roll hoop must be removed to check. This is true for older cars. I am not sure this is still the case with 78 or 79 cars.

Dan Rear · 12 Dec 2006, 14:02 (Ref:1788964)

IIRC 782-26 was the last 78 F2 car March made. South used it 4 or 5 times in F2 and Aurora that year. It then passed to Adrian Russell who debuted it, still in blue, at the early October 1978 Donington Libre/Irish Atlantic meeting. He finished 2nd (from memory) to Norman D's 772P-U1.

Russell used it thru' 79 in Aurora and the odd F2 race, and then sold it to Jim Stevenson for 1980. Hart powered throughout. Jim S used it in Northern/Scottish Libre in 1980 sporadically, but not in Aurora. After that, I can't recall OTOH. Into the Scottish Libre scene at a guess or climbing??

Through all of the above it was, and looked like, a genuine 782, ie NOT a 792-clone/look-alike.

Adam Ferrington · 12 Dec 2006, 14:07 (Ref:1788971)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

IIRC 782-26 was the last 78 F2 car March made.

Dan, actually 782-26 was not the last 782 made. Chassis 27 and 28 were built for Japan in June 1978.

MATTinSURREY · 12 Dec 2006, 14:53 (Ref:1788999)

Guys,

I've just taken some photos of the car undressed. Who out there feels suitable qualified to look at them and determine whether it's a 782 or 792?

Many thanks

Matt

Dan Rear · 12 Dec 2006, 15:35 (Ref:1789013)

Sorry Adam !!
Matt, there are many differences 'tween a real 782 and 792. Even I can tell them apart...Put a pic on here, and you'll be inundated with opinions as to what you've got.

znarfg · 12 Dec 2006, 16:39 (Ref:1789045)

Hi Guys
I have seen the car. It's a real 792 car, not only a modified 782 car.
-It has a 792 chassis tube, a 792 bodywork, 792 suspention. Nothing of this car came from a 782 car.-
In the early 70th you could modify a 732 March into a 742 car, a 752 car into a 762 or 772 car. All these cars have the same chassis tub and suspention (with little differences). The 782 March and 792 are complete different you can't modify a 782 into a 792 car. Maybe starts this car its life as a 782 but now it's a 792. That was the reason I said - It's a 792 car-
If I attache a 732 chassis plate into a 842 car it's still a 842 car.
Regards
znarfg

Chris Townsend · 12 Dec 2006, 18:10 (Ref:1789113)

I don't see a way in which you could convert a 782 into a 792. 792 had completely different tub [partly because it was March's first ground effect car]. This suggests to me that someone has just stuck a plate onto what is certainly not the car it started life with.
Dan is right about the South/Russell 782-26, this car ran with 782 bodywork and suspension into the early 80s.

If it's a 792 with a 782 plate on it, we are thrown back onto the Ingo Hoffmann bit of the history. Did Hoffmann ever race [or test] a 792? I don't think he drove one in Europe, but what about Japan?

Chris

Chris Townsend · 12 Dec 2006, 18:13 (Ref:1789115)

One correction to znarfg on March modifications. You could make a 752 [and indeed a 742] into a 762, but you couldn't make it into a 772 [new style of tub and relatively unsuccessful] You could however, make it into a
772P...which is pretty much what March did.

Chris

CScott · 12 Dec 2006, 20:34 (Ref:1789247)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

One correction to znarfg on March modifications. You could make a 752 [and indeed a 742] into a 762, but you couldn't make it into a 772 [new style of tub and relatively unsuccessful] You could however, make it into a
772P...which is pretty much what March did.

Chris

Hi, I am not trying to be a smart arrse, its just that I was looking to buy a March, and came across this so called 782, but when i saw the pics, I was not so interested, in fact when it was in the Dolson site,(in USA),it started as a 782, , then the add was moddified, from saying 782,to a March f2, so I think that some one else picked up on it, and of course a 782 is worth quite a bit more than a 792, I feal sorry for Matt,

allenbrown · 12 Dec 2006, 22:45 (Ref:1789358)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MATTinSURREY

Guys,

I've just taken some photos of the car undressed. Who out there feels suitable qualified to look at them and determine whether it's a 782 or 792?

Many thanks

Matt

Yes Matt. Email them to allen@oldracingcars.com.

James Murray · 13 Dec 2006, 09:51 (Ref:1789674)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

One correction to znarfg on March modifications. You could make a 752 [and indeed a 742] into a 762, but you couldn't make it into a 772 [new style of tub and relatively unsuccessful] You could however, make it into a
772P...which is pretty much what March did.

Chris

I could well be wrong here but it was my understanding that the tubs from 712 - 742 were the same barring minor mods and were all part of the same family. The 752/762 were a new design, much wider and curved inwards just behind the front wheels, therefore making it impossible to convert 742 or earlier to 752/762.

allenbrown · 13 Dec 2006, 10:00 (Ref:1789683)

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Murray

I could well be wrong here but it was my understanding that the tubs from 712 - 742 were the same barring minor mods and were all part of the same family. The 752/762 were a new design, much wider and curved inwards just behind the front wheels, therefore making it impossible to convert 742 or earlier to 752/762.

Quite right - the early 'narrow tub' and the 1975/76/77 'wide tub'. In 1977, triggered by BMW's discomfort with results, March built the works cars on the older narrow tub as the 772P but built customer 772s on the unloved wide tub. So you could update a 742 to a 772P.

The F3s and F/Atls had continued to use the narrow tub throughout meaning that a 773 was not dissimilar to a 712M.

All then changed for 1978.

Allen

allenbrown · 13 Dec 2006, 11:26 (Ref:1789761)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MATTinSURREY

Guys,

I've just taken some photos of the car undressed. Who out there feels suitable qualified to look at them and determine whether it's a 782 or 792?

Many thanks

Matt

Matt

Thanks for the pictures. Having just checked with "someone who knows these things", you can be completely confident that's a 792. Actually a buggered about 792. It has a 792 tub, a very odd radiator and there are some aspects of something earlier around the rear.

However, it's most certainly not a 782. I'd suggest that you need to get your money back.

Allen

MATTinSURREY · 13 Dec 2006, 15:41 (Ref:1789920)

Allen,

Many thanks for taking the time to analyse the photos.

Your advice is noted and I've already began proceedings to recover my money and return the car.

The gentleman who sold it to me has a collection of race cars and is well known in racing circles with, I hope, a reputation to maintain.

Personally I'm amazed that such an avid collector and racer didn't know the car was wrong before he advertised it!

Kind regards

Matt

Dan Rear · 13 Dec 2006, 17:29 (Ref:1789973)

Blimey Matt, best of luck with getting the cash back. Any names of that person...

By the way, why would someone want to confuse a 792 with a 782. I accept the latter is a beaut, and the former an ugly thing, but results wise in period both won many races, both the Euro champ. Why is a 782 worth more??

MATTinSURREY · 13 Dec 2006, 17:46 (Ref:1789980)

Hi Dan,

In Europe there's virtually nothing to race 792's in I'm afraid.

782's however are eligable for many historic racing series, including the prestigous Euro F2 series, which visits many of our top racing circuits.

As such, 792's fetch far less than 782's.

My car however is even worth less because it's a 792 with a 782 chassis plate!

Kind regards

Matt

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