Diesel Engine Discussion

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the diesel engines restricted to single-turbo as well for 2011?

I can not see any mention of this, neither diesel or petrol in the draft regulations In the old rulebook (I mean 2010 and before) there used to be a remark under the displacement table indicating that only "one single stage charging device" for LMP2.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by yamato

Agreed.

I think that was only an initial reation to the front of the car looking so similar to 908 in the initial spy shot. The fact that it was in near full livery in that one bothered me.

It is clear now in the officially released shots that this is a whole new tub, and NOT a test mule at all.

I personally think that there could be a big shift in technology going on here. It still says HDi FAP on the side,.... but nothing else indicates a diesel to me?????

Granted though,.... we are only seeing what Peugeot wants us to see at this point,... and if they are still evaluating options, they could be evaluating parrallel programs with both diesel and petrol engines as well as different KERS options....... It's been a long time since there has been so much conjecture about what the major players might be doing,..... And I for one love it!

Correct... going from superior big engines to develop smaller as efficient ones, and on top of it introduce hybrid systems, its not easy. Several options might very well be on the table... its not distractive propaganda (and ACO wanted to reduce costs ?.. go figure!)

But also i believe that the marketing department slipped ahead... they didn't evaluated properly what the effect on competition could have been, neither if the engine could be good enough on time(maybe the why they removed for the test)... and so the still photos are with HDi FAP because that is what was projected and what the test car tested( how good its above top secret now). Small utilitarian vehicles ( on diesel) is increasing rapidly in EU... and that is most of the market or Pug...

OTOH if the intended diesel its not ready on time, they might also have alternatives( petrol ? why not?.. to test the hybrid system on Sebring and Monza...)... nevertheless i've a strong feeling that Lemans 2011 by summer will see a diesel, or something has gone real wrong with engine development.

Jeez... the mid big fin is ugly as hell.. couldn't the rear spoiler delimitating vertical fins, be augmented substantially instead ?... it could even have a better effect of what is intended, if more distance is from the center of gravity.

[Acid09]

It is a Diesel, it has been confirmed...why have you guys this nonsense-discussion?

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It is a Diesel, it has been confirmed...why have you guys this nonsense-discussion?

Apparently this "confirmation" has not reached this thread, so could you share it? That is if there is one ...

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It is a Diesel, it has been confirmed...why have you guys this nonsense-discussion?

You'd better tell Peugeot..........

“We are still exploring several options with regard to the engine and technology we will use,” points out Bruno Famin, the Technical Director of Peugeot Sport. “Work on the engine’s development is ongoing. Endurance racing is a proving ground that provides us with an opportunity to showcase all the brand’s technologies.”

(from their official press release regarding the 90X)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

You'd better tell Peugeot..........
(from their official press release regarding the 90X)

Peugeot will say anything to confuse us .
Henri Pescarolo has confirmed that the 90X is a Diesel, he did that shortly after the auction, suggesting he might have been in negotiations with Peugeot (which he might still be).

But some seem to forget that Peugeot planned in the beginning of '10, to design both a petrol and a diesel engine for this year, where the 90X would be powered by the diesel, and the Petrol powered by the cancelled Oreca LMP1. We do not know if Peugeot have scraped one of the engines, but my bet is that we will see a Peugeot petrol in either a Oreca 90X or in a Pescarolo. And the diesel in the Peugeot Sport 90X.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by GT6

I think the peugout sales are predominantly diesels so it has always made sense for them to use that engine, also i can not see why they are going to split there research budget at a time when money is not exactly over flowing in thier coffers.

From what I've read in magazines it seems even those brands known for diesels are moving down the turbo petrol route.

As for engine development costs they already have a base 2.0T WRC engine, how suitable it is I don't know.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JAG

As for engine development costs they already have a base 2.0T WRC engine, how suitable it is I don't know.

Thats a very good point!!! - the citroen WRC 2.0 turbo engine is now almost done with before they move to the 1.6 regs for 2011.........it will be good for 360bhp and well over 600NM of torque (from my WRC engine days), the power is basically limited by an air restrictor (34mm I think), but if my memory serves me correct they run unlimited boost, hence the astronomical torque figure........to remove the restrictor, re-map for circa 550bhp then shoe-horn that engine into the back of a test hack LMP1 car is more than do-able for a looksy at low cost.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by CTD

Peugeot will say anything to confuse us .

Simply put, Pug OR ANY OTHER out there don't care about you and i (us).. they don't care about noise preference, style, tech preferences... nothing personal, only business.

The purpose is profit (=winning) ... you have a hard time getting this. They'll do what they think is necessary to gain a "competitive advantage"... secrecy is exactly about that, a preventive measure against competition not "us"... the choice about diesel is exactly that, they don't care even its peanut butter... and if it fits better the market positions, the better.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by knighty

but may be essential to win the big race - LeMans.........so they could have a small 2.0 gasoline engine for sprint races on the twisty tracks........then a V8 diesel for the long fast circuits on most of the LMS calendar.......or just do both at the same time via using Oreca........either way, I really do expect both Audi and Peugeot to go the Diesel route because the regs are still bent in a diesels favour.........I'm sure AMR will throw their toys out of the pram once this starts to happen.

diesel will have an even bigger advantage on those twisty tracks (R10[at debut] won 6 out of 7 races in 2006 AMLS with a car TOO LONG to fit decently in any narrow city streets) because the "higher torque=acceleration power" comes at much lower revs than in a petrol engine...

The problem is that rules are clearly IN FAVOR OF PETROL because of the 15% smaller tanks that diesels must carry( the era of 'big' engines is over, they don't make sense)... meaning diesels would have to be even more efficient, more "effective" compression ratios... more balanced to achieve higher revs... parasitic loads reduced drastically... and stop rules putting arbitrarily more weight on diesels cars during a season... WHY CAN'T OTHER TEAMS ADOPT DIESEL INSTEAD( petrol is obsolete).

But the potential of diesel is there... BELIVE ME(if you want)... and yet largely UNEXPLORED. In my country we had the once sport director( the Ulrich) of the team Joest, commenting of when they won 24h Lemans with Porsche... saying that the arbitrary changing penalizing diesel made just before the race (more weight, narrower air restrictors) for the 2010 race was necessary, that the intention was to reduce the potential up to 15%... bla bla bla... and it seems not happening, because of natural evolutions of engines, still the right way to pursuit(WRONG)... bla bla bla... that the Sarrazin 2009 qualifying lap of 3.19*** is getting too dangerous... bla bla bla...

3 hours later and the "Oreca" car( not any of the official ones) was pulverizing the record with "~3.19 flat" IN RACE CONDITIONS NOT QUALIFYING(and no one killed), with a car that was supposed to be up to 15% slower ... Joest former boss head would have looked like a melon... i just couldn't stop laughing ... because it was on diesel ? NO ! ... because that is the way motorsport should be... evolution, not "political" arbitrary restrictions.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by knighty

Thats a very good point!!! - the citroen WRC 2.0 turbo engine is now almost done with before they move to the 1.6 regs for 2011.........it will be good for 360bhp and well over 600NM of torque (from my WRC engine days), the power is basically limited by an air restrictor (34mm I think), but if my memory serves me correct they run unlimited boost, hence the astronomical torque figure........to remove the restrictor, re-map for circa 550bhp then shoe-horn that engine into the back of a test hack LMP1 car is more than do-able for a looksy at low cost.

All very well... but the problem is fuel consumption.

Those WRC engines can have consumptions already above 50l of fuel for tested 100Km...La Sathre 10 laps are above 130Km... fuel tanks are around 60-70 liters... and now if you augment largely the engines output, consumption could sky rocket...

Races with 60 stops ?? ... ACO will kill the sport, TV transmissions are already too stupid to believe with more time with non-race specific track happening than with focus on what is on the "race" track(and they change focus all the time even when something important on track is about to happen)... why not make a soup novel out of it and forget about the race altogether.

Bottom line, the engine volume is not a "deterministic" factor for efficiency(=relative power output)... a transposition of a WRC engine will not happen... it would require too many changes to be effective(not saying that it could not be a 2l inline 4 cylinder turbo petrol, only that it must be a different engine altogether).. jzzz... a 1.5l inline 4 cylinder F1 turbo of old was close to 1000hp(or could have been), the problem was also the consumption related to the bigger 3.5l for similar power outputs.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by knighty

excellent analysis by mike as usual......about 150mm shorter wheel-base would indicate two cylinders worth of lengtgh has been knocked off the V12, my spies told me the 2007 V12 pug motor had a bore of 82mm, which means its either a V8 or a straight 4!!!........well that narrows it down :-/........my money is still on a V8 diesel

I'm told Peugeot is V8 diesel and apparently Audi has gone "compact" V6 diesel route for R18. We shall see, won't we? Speculation is fun!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

I'm told Peugeot is V8 diesel and apparently Audi has gone "compact" V6 diesel route for R18. We shall see, won't we? Speculation is fun!

How good are your sources?

[The Badger]

Glad you posted a wink after the comment ..... I almost cracked up when I read that !!!

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

I'm told Peugeot is V8 diesel and apparently Audi has gone "compact" V6 diesel route for R18. We shall see, won't we? Speculation is fun!

Sounds good, variety is what its all about. It was probably too much to ask for one to go for gasoline and one for diesel, but if you think the equivalency debate/lobbying is bad now, can you image what it would be like if that happened!

[Lazy]

Originally Posted by cdsavage

but if you think the equivalency debate/lobbying is bad now, can you image what it would be like if that happened!

At least it would be more balanced! If both choose diesel: Pug & Audi are on the same side [politically], against one small sportscar manufacturer and bunch of privateers. Is there even a debate now?

[veeten]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

I'm told Peugeot is V8 diesel and apparently Audi has gone "compact" V6 diesel route for R18. We shall see, won't we? Speculation is fun!

And I believe I know where Audi got the "compact" V6 from, specifically from VAG's parent company Volkswagen. It's the same turbo diesel V6 that was in the Dakar-winning Toureg racer.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by veeten

And I believe I know where Audi got the "compact" V6 from, specifically from VAG's parent company Volkswagen. It's the same turbo diesel V6 that was in the Dakar-winning Toureg racer.

Thats rather doubt full.
Audi will probably make a brand new V6 design for Le Mans.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by veeten

And I believe I know where Audi got the "compact" V6 from, specifically from VAG's parent company Volkswagen. It's the same turbo diesel V6 that was in the Dakar-winning Toureg racer.

I guess the requirements for an engine to be installed in a raid car must be quite different to the ones for a sportscar..., in terms of weight, cooling needs, centre of gravity, power delivery..., and, more important, i think that engine in the raid car is non stressed, which in the sportscar should work as part of the structure itself.
But I could be perfectly wrong!!!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by veeten

And I believe I know where Audi got the "compact" V6 from, specifically from VAG's parent company Volkswagen. It's the same turbo diesel V6 that was in the Dakar-winning Toureg racer.

VW uses a 2.5 liter 5-in-line production based TDI engine in the Race Touareg and Audi is rumored to use a 3.7 liter V6 purpose built TDI engine in the R18. Two totally unrelated engines I would say.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

VW uses a 2.5 liter 5-in-line production based TDI engine in the Race Touareg and Audi is rumored to use a 3.7 liter V6 purpose built TDI engine in the R18. Two totally unrelated engines I would say.

yup - agree with Gwyllon - as much as I find the VW dakar diesel engine very interesting (they only recently changed to a 4-valve per cylinder head!) I would be very very surprised to see it in the back of an LMP1 car......its just dosent suit the regulations, it would be at a huge disadvantage with only 2.5 litres capacity.

[Tim the Grey]

I am so pleased Mike has pretty much confirmed my guess.
6 inches/150mm shorter, with MOST of that reduction coming behind the B pillar.

I wonder if they are dusting off the old PRV V6 from WM days?
*grin*

I really DO hope there are some serious variations on the theme in 2011. I'd like to think Audi and Peugeot head in diverging directions in terms of what they think will work best. This could get to be fascinating.
Especially IF AMR pull off a shock or two along the way... Though personally, I'd like to think Henri's boys have a point or 3 to prove?

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

I wonder if they are dusting off the old PRV V6 from WM days?
*grin*

Well it would be utterly dominant at the head of the field. For the first couple of laps at least.

[chernaudi]

The Audi engine, be it a V6 or V8, will be a purpose built racing engine. I don't think that Audi will use the steel block 3.0 V6 TDI as a basis--I'd vote for a V12 or V10, the latter being fairly compact to begin with, being reduced to a V8 or V6.

That short engine to me smacks of KERS possibly. And the Audi R18 and the Pug 90X is rumored to running wide front tires. The short wheelbase on the 90X (comparable to pre-diesel era LMP1s, like the Audi R8, which has a pretty short wheelbase in it's era of 2730-2740mm, or 107.5-108 inches) and the forward weight bias assuring a near 50/50 WD, makes the wide tire idea vilable, espeically if Michelin is willing to make proper tires for Audi and Peugeot, unlike the Acura, though I think that HPD/Honda Racing's lack of interest in the LMP1 program post LM killed that idea for them.

Audi will likely even field a wide tired R15 in testing soon (if not already) as an R18 test bed, and may even race some early next year, especially if the R18 hits a snag. That per Pruett's article about the 90X on Speed.com.

Makes me wonder if the 908 has ever been tested with wide fronts? Not that it needs it, but Audi's mission with the 2011 R15 is two fold--test for the R18, and to try and fix the R15's low speed grip problems that it's had off and on since Le Mans.

However, it's been rumored that as early as Sebring this year, the R15 may've already been testing wide tires--the bolted on fender bulges for steering lock clearance gives that creedance.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Lazy

At least it would be more balanced! If both choose diesel: Pug & Audi are on the same side [politically], against one small sportscar manufacturer and bunch of privateers. Is there even a debate now?

Simply put... why can't other contenders adopt diesel also.

I mean, even following the rational that diesel was benefited, if everybody were on diesel by now... no-one would get to be in advantage. Leveraged playing field.

Is a "race" diesel that so difficult to came by, that only a big constructor employing all its resources could sort out ???... i clearly believe that is not the case.

Staying with an inferior tech( even if so artificially by rules... which is about to be showned that is not so), and begging or whining for arbitrary rule twisting, according to whimps, is a tactic that i would expect from the ultra corrupted "political" class...

I mean, there is no way to really leverage things when there can be so much differences about techs, without "ugly" things happening... and i'm generalizing which should give a better picture... simply put a tech as standard, and abolish all others, or don't twist, let them differentiate and evolve... because now its akin to competing with a small river dam, and whining about parity against a nuclear power plant.. how would be possible to leverage that? (exaggerated but the logic is the same).