Are You Rich?

[Mark Mitchell]

Having read elsewhere on these pages that competing in FF for a season can cost in excess of £100,000, I pose the question: Are you Rich?

I could have posted this in the general Racers' Forum, but thought I'd go here, where I know a few drivers.

As a Marshal, the general comment is that we do what we do because we can't afford to race. Most of you fella's seem to be regular 9-5 working folks and I was just wondering what sort of sacrifices you have to make in order to have a budget for competing?

So, why can't I afford to race? I Have a reasonably well-paid job but know I couldn't justify the costs involved.

Please forgive the title of the thread - it's all I could think of.

[GORDON STREETER]

Mark if you dig into a thread I started "the cost of racing" it might open your eyes on what people do spend ( or won't admit to how much ) I am a normal working guy and don't earn a lot of money, so I have to limit how many races I do in a year (entry for the Snetterton Heritage over £700 ) I don't have any kids and I don't have a mortgage. I use an old banger Transit to tow the racebox about and we also sleep in it at the meetings. I would think that a lot of people get themselves into serious financial trouble to actually race in this day and age . Its always been expensive but now most people involved are on the take and I am glad I am in my "twilight" years. Saying that it is a drug and I don't regret any of it !

[mountainstar]

What happened to the old days of drivers buying their own formula ford and towing it all around the country, working on it themselves and racing?

Now these "teams" have f1 sized transporters and all the gizmos around. I guess it's all well and good for the "career" driver, but it just lacks a bit of romance.

[GORDON STREETER]

I would also like to add my wife and I run about in ex mot failure bangers, while even a lot of clubbie racers have towing vehicle's that cost more than our house did. Thats the sort of sacrifices I personally have had to make to be competitive.

[Mark Mitchell]

Thanks Gordon. Ironically, you are one of the "Names" in British Motorsport to me.......you've always been there and I've been to a good many race days where you have provided great entertainment.

[StephenRae]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What happened to the old days of drivers buying their own formula ford and towing it all around the country, working on it themselves and racing.

"Thats me that is"

[Alan Raine]

I (well we, as there we 2 of us sharing) did it. While I had no kids and a small mortgage, it was ok as all the rebuilds and repairs we did ourselves. It helps having an engineer as a brother in law who also shared the car, but it still took more than the average wage to do it.

You also have to remember 25 years ago Formula Fords were much more simple beasties than they are now, and it takes specialist engineering to make the parts to fix them (although the likes of Stephen Rae can do it). In my day a bit of welding or braising fixed the odd minor bump. Now it's all castings and complicated suspension systems.

The other change is that modern cars are almost impossible to work on as electronics have taken over. When I first started driving, I learned how cars worked by continually having to take them apart and fix them. Adjusting the carbs, messing about with the timing. These days how many kids have to do that anymore?

[McKendrick]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What happened to the old days of drivers buying their own formula ford and towing it all around the country, working on it themselves and racing?

Now these "teams" have f1 sized transporters and all the gizmos around. I guess it's all well and good for the "career" driver, but it just lacks a bit of romance.

There are a few who do it still but whats the point when your going to spend a year or two there before moving up the ranks! As a driver, driving for a team all you have to concentrate on is driving the car and not having to do stuff on the car.

The transporters in Formula Ford are nothing like F1 though. Even the biggest teams have quite basic ones. It would be nice to have all the fancy gizmos etc but a formula ford is still quite basic!!

[itsonlyme]

Originally Posted by McKendrick

There are a few who do it still but whats the point when your going to spend a year or two there before moving up the ranks! As a driver, driving for a team all you have to concentrate on is driving the car and not having to do stuff on the car.

i have looked after a lot of drivers who just 'turn up and race' and have no understanding of how the car works, which normally meant absolutely NO feedback to what the car is doing (how can i improve the car if the driver doesn't understand what he/she is doing themselves? .... its that telepathy thing again!),
working on the car or at least watching and learning what goes on is just like reading an instruction manual, it can only help the driver improve if he/she knows what will happen if they do something.
i remember being parked next to david lesley at oulton in the late 80s and he made his new up and coming young scottish driver change his own gear ratios in his ff1600 (on the back of an open trailer!) so he could understand how the car and its compoments worked.... this square chinned scottish driver now drinks red bull!

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by itsonlyme

this square chinned scottish driver now drinks red bull!

Ah "Michael" Coulthard - as he was called today on Sky News!

[FranksWilde]

Originally Posted by McKendrick

There are a few who do it still but whats the point when your going to spend a year or two there before moving up the ranks! As a driver, driving for a team all you have to concentrate on is driving the car and not having to do stuff on the car.

The point is that alot of people are involved in this sport because they like cars, engines and playing with them. Turning up to just drive a car to me is pretty soleless.

Most of us clubbies appreciate that we are not going to have a career in motoracing so wish to get all the value out of it that we can. For me that means getting my hands dirty, learning, tweaking and fixing the car.

You can hardly call what we do value for money if all your doing is turning up to qualify for 20minutes and then race for 20 minutes for about £1000 plus your entry fees.

[GORDON STREETER]

Race entry fees are now getting out of hand. When I started I built a race winning car for about £300, now the race entries can easily be more than twice that. pro rata dosen't come into it as we didn't pay to race back then.

[ADEE]

I personally blame Jackie Stewart for this escalation in costs... when his son Paul started racing he made sure Paul Steawart Racing had the best - not only in terms of car but also trailers, motor homes etc.. It raised the ante for everyone as there is a lot of the 'me too' attitude around the 'filter formula' (F3, FF etc.) - ie they've got a big truck, we need a bigger one. It is a sad fact of life but this is the way many of these teams have differentiated themselves to attract the paying drivers - and someone has to fund those trucks etc..
Now it has even perculated down to the club series where 'cheque book racing' is rife. But I guess that's life - he (she) with the most toys wins!!

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by FranksWilde

The point is that alot of people are involved in this sport because they like cars, engines and playing with them. Turning up to just drive a car to me is pretty soleless.

Most of us clubbies appreciate that we are not going to have a career in motoracing so wish to get all the value out of it that we can. For me that means getting my hands dirty, learning, tweaking and fixing the car.

You can hardly call what we do value for money if all your doing is turning up to qualify for 20minutes and then race for 20 minutes for about £1000 plus your entry fees.

Totally agree with that Frank. I knew nothing when I started and learnt as I went along. It was much more fun being hands on.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by ADEE

I personally blame Jackie Stewart for this escalation in costs... when his son Paul started racing he made sure Paul Steawart Racing had the best - not only in terms of car but also trailers, motor homes etc.. It raised the ante for everyone as there is a lot of the 'me too' attitude around the 'filter formula' (F3, FF etc.) - ie they've got a big truck, we need a bigger one. It is a sad fact of life but this is the way many of these teams have differentiated themselves to attract the paying drivers - and someone has to fund those trucks etc..
Now it has even perculated down to the club series where 'cheque book racing' is rife. But I guess that's life - he (she) with the most toys wins!!

It started before JYS. Adrian Reynard was doing the same in early 80's not only with how the team was presented but also with the cars he built. Formula Ford was already going down the route of trick suspension etc. The 82 Reynard was possibly the final nail in the coffin for us amateurs.

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

It started before JYS. Adrian Reynard was doing the same in early 80's not only with how the team was presented but also with the cars he built. Formula Ford was already going down the route of trick suspension etc. The 82 Reynard was possibly the final nail in the coffin for us amateurs.

Thats a bit pessimistic, we run our own 98/99 tatuus Fr's, we tow them on trailers, we prepare them in our workshop in the garden of our home, all our equipment is transported in the boots of our road cars. We aren't the only ones in BARC Fr who operate this way,
I have often heard spectators and marshals saying in the paddock how they would love to be racing, but can't afford it then they drive away in a road car that costs probably twice as much as they would have to pay for a cheap singke seater.
I don't dispute that there are drivers/fathers unloading a small fortune for a years racing in the hope that they will be next years Damon Hill, but it simply is not neccessary if you just want to "go racing"
And in the final analysis, who's the happiest? us or the failed "next years Damon Hill".

[Triple J Motorsport]

Alan I disagree

The Mygale SJ01 I rebuilt from the chassis up and raced was as good as any Zetec. In fact I set it up and ran it for it's french owner and he won the festival.

Just sold my FF1600 and the new driver is more than pleased with it see Autospout. That was rebuilt twice from the chassis up and is running with my set up.

Ok I am no John Oxborrow I didn't design the cars but I mended, built, modified and ran them. The point is if I could afford the tyres and had the talent I could have won in those cars too. So it can be done without all the bull$hit off the back of a trailer, I have never had a truck tempted now if I could afford one though

[McKendrick]

Originally Posted by itsonlyme

i have looked after a lot of drivers who just 'turn up and race' and have no understanding of how the car works, which normally meant absolutely NO feedback to what the car is doing (how can i improve the car if the driver doesn't understand what he/she is doing themselves? .... its that telepathy thing again!),
working on the car or at least watching and learning what goes on is just like reading an instruction manual, it can only help the driver improve if he/she knows what will happen if they do something.
i remember being parked next to david lesley at oulton in the late 80s and he made his new up and coming young scottish driver change his own gear ratios in his ff1600 (on the back of an open trailer!) so he could understand how the car and its compoments worked.... this square chinned scottish driver now drinks red bull!

That is a good point about the feedback, but you can use test sessions to educate them on feedback by making set-up changes etc. The use of the data logger also helps put the pieces of the story together and can be used to help them and you understand how the car was working.

A lot of the good drivers arent brilliant with their feedback as they will drive around the problem and can still make the car quick. After a bit of time getting to know the engineer and how they both work, the feedback improves and the car can be set-up more how they like it and hopefully they will go faster.

Also there are a lot of up and coming mechanics/engineers who if it wasnt for the teams being used in the lower catergories would not be able to get on to the career ladder, as the cars would all be family run, and probably prepared by friends/family for free.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Thats a bit pessimistic, we run our own 98/99 tatuus Fr's, we tow them on trailers, we prepare them in our workshop in the garden of our home, all our equipment is transported in the boots of our road cars. We aren't the only ones in BARC Fr who operate this way,
I have often heard spectators and marshals saying in the paddock how they would love to be racing, but can't afford it then they drive away in a road car that costs probably twice as much as they would have to pay for a cheap singke seater.
I don't dispute that there are drivers/fathers unloading a small fortune for a years racing in the hope that they will be next years Damon Hill, but it simply is not neccessary if you just want to "go racing"
And in the final analysis, who's the happiest? us or the failed "next years Damon Hill".

That's spot on Bob one of my mates said they same to me the other day just before getting into his new 911.....

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by McKendrick

That is a good point about the feedback, but you can use test sessions to educate them on feedback by making set-up changes etc. The use of the data logger also helps put the pieces of the story together and can be used to help them and you understand how the car was working.

A lot of the good drivers arent brilliant with their feedback as they will drive around the problem and can still make the car quick. After a bit of time getting to know the engineer and how they both work, the feedback improves and the car can be set-up more how they like it and hopefully they will go faster.

Also there are a lot of up and coming mechanics/engineers who if it wasnt for the teams being used in the lower catergories would not be able to get on to the career ladder, as the cars would all be family run, and probably prepared by friends/family for free.

True except those "friends of the family" working for free could have in the passed started working for F1 teams etc

Personally looking forward to playing with wings now too and I am fitting a new data logger as they are amazing tools. I can only imagine the arguements it would have saved when my father was racing.

[StephenRae]

Don't you think the proliferation of big trucks and 'professional' teams over the years has served to raise the anti. Entry and testing fees, tyre costs etc. are all geared to those who appear to have more money than sense. The rest of us are just stuck with it.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Thats a bit pessimistic,

It possibly is. My point was that the more complicated the cars became, the less easy it was to run them.

Of course you can run the car yourself. It's just become a bit harder which has possibly put a few people off doing it themselves.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Don't you think the proliferation of big trucks and 'professional' teams over the years has served to raise the anti. Entry and testing fees, tyre costs etc. are all geared to those who appear to have more money than sense. The rest of us are just stuck with it.

To a degree yes but in my opinion the manufacture championships have done most damage with the BRSCC in the grouping of certain championships in "packages" eg Toca package Power Tour F3 etc. Gone are the COB days when if there was a touring car or F3 race COB was also on the bill. We are racing to empty stands so entry fees are now crazy.

Combe is exception to this rule so hats off to them. If I lived nearer thats where I'd be, BARC next year hopefully.

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

It possibly is. My point was that the more complicated the cars became, the less easy it was to run them.

Of course you can run the car yourself. It's just become a bit harder which has possibly put a few people off doing it themselves.

Alan,
I'm still not sure I agree, we have a classic FF2000 ( 1981 Royale) which we haven't run now for some time, but we found it no less demanding to maintain than the FR's. Different maybe, but the work content and cost were comparable.
I think Stephen was right about the appearence of wealth ( huge trucks etc) making us targets for those out to make a quick buck without bringing anything worthwhile to the party.
My favourite gripe concerns those who insert themselves between the driver and the grid with their hand out insisting that all components must be purchased at inflated prices through them in the " interests of generating a level playing field" All regardless of the fact that said component can be supplied by the driver or purchased elsewhere at a fraction of the price.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Yep's that the single manufacture championships

I know of one such ex championship where the parts could be sourced else where at half the cost but obviously without the correct markings etc

On the flip side FFirst teams retained the roll hoop and chassis plate and made their own chassis. No problem except they were far better than the original so the guy who played fair lost out and that's always going to be the manufacturer's arguement. Best not get involved as a club racer.