Button and Sato

**Born Racer** · 13 Apr 2005, 18:57 (Ref:1277410)

What are your views on the two BAR race drivers?

My attention's been drawn to the fact that a lot of people really don't rate them on the forum, so I'm interested to know why.

Formula Juan · 13 Apr 2005, 19:07 (Ref:1277417)

Button - a show-off who thinks he's soooo special. Umm, no Jenson. He is very over-rated. I admit he's got a smooth style, but he is useless at overtaking and also at defending his position.
In 2000 he was poor. Scored only half the points of Ralf...and Ralf's not amazing really, is he!?!?
In 2001 he was completely destroyed by Fisichella, and 2002 was not special either. He just beat Trulli who used to be a bit pants himself back then.
2003 he beat Villeneuve only because Richards made Jax unwelcome and he got all the bad reliability.
Button is disloyal to the people who have helped him most. He seems to rate himself very highly, and I find his mannor extremely unattractive and - at times - downright arrogant.

Sato - ok this guy is terrible...should not even be in F1 and is only in it because of Honda's influence. He was TERRIBLE in 2002 - look how many cars he must have destroyed that year!?!? Last year he suffered bad engines...possibly his own fault anyway...eitherway Button was millions of times better than him...and I already said what I think about Jense.
Seriously I think Sato is a terrible terrible driver who is actually quite dangerous.

This is just my opinion of course

Knowlesy · 13 Apr 2005, 19:10 (Ref:1277418)

Jenson - smooth, super quick driver who has proven what he is capable of, particularly in 2004. he needs a winning car and fast, lest his talent is wasted.

Sato is one of my favourites I must admit. He's rapid whichever way you look at it, just a little ragged. But when you consider how long he's been racing, what he has achieved is remarkable. I enjoyed watching him in British F3, a series he won, and have backed him ever since. Can occasionally dissapoint, but he is willing to learn and I think there is more to come from taku given the chance.

Knowlesy · 13 Apr 2005, 19:12 (Ref:1277420)

A lot of debatable points there FJ. I know you love these two drivers.

I'd argue against all those points, but really I'd be wasting an awful lot of time. I'll leave it to the others!

ASCII Man · 13 Apr 2005, 19:19 (Ref:1277426)

Uhm, no I won't bother either, too busy you know! °falls asleep°

**Born Racer** · 13 Apr 2005, 19:21 (Ref:1277432)

Quote:

He seems to rate himself very highly

An essential quality for any top-level racing driver?

Sodemo · 13 Apr 2005, 19:25 (Ref:1277438)

I must say, ive only seen a handful of good overtaking moves by Jenson.

Formula Juan · 13 Apr 2005, 19:29 (Ref:1277441)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

I must say, ive only seen a handful of good overtaking moves by Jenson.

You mean you've seen a whole handful ???

**Born Racer** · 13 Apr 2005, 19:36 (Ref:1277452)

Quote:

Button is disloyal to the people who have helped him most.

Can you elaborate on that?

maximus · 13 Apr 2005, 19:41 (Ref:1277458)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula Juan

You mean you've seen a whole handful ???

Germany, Malaysia, China, Japan 2003.... Need I say more?

And JV demoralised himself (he should have got more involved with the team before it was too late, but I digress..) and Button out raced him almost every time in 2003.

Satos a cracking racer on his day, fast aggressive and exciting to watch. He needs to be careful when he is going for a gap (Nurburbring 2004) but he is magnificent at overtaking and defending, as he proved in Bahrain last week.

maximus · 13 Apr 2005, 19:43 (Ref:1277460)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula Juan

In 2000 he was poor. Scored only half the points of Ralf...and Ralf's not amazing really, is he!?!?

In his debut season !? That Williams was a dog and Ralf at the time was very highly rated. He out raced Ralf on occasions which impressed everyone and exceeded everyones expectations (except yours by the look of things!!)

Formula Juan · 13 Apr 2005, 19:49 (Ref:1277466)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximus

Germany, Malaysia, China, Japan 2003.... Need I say more?

1 Germany
2 Malaysia
3 China
4 Japan

...hmmm...I dunno about you but on both of my hands I have four fingers AND a thumb! Therefore a 'handful' should consist of at least FIVE examples.

So to answer your question, YES, you do need to say more!

Inigo Montoya · 13 Apr 2005, 19:51 (Ref:1277468)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula Juan

Button - a show-off who thinks he's soooo special. Umm, no Jenson. He is very over-rated. I admit he's got a smooth style, but he is useless at overtaking and also at defending his position.
In 2000 he was poor. Scored only half the points of Ralf...and Ralf's not amazing really, is he!?!?
In 2001 he was completely destroyed by Fisichella, and 2002 was not special either. He just beat Trulli who used to be a bit pants himself back then.
2003 he beat Villeneuve only because Richards made Jax unwelcome and he got all the bad reliability.
Button is disloyal to the people who have helped him most. He seems to rate himself very highly, and I find his mannor extremely unattractive and - at times - downright arrogant.

Sato - ok this guy is terrible...should not even be in F1 and is only in it because of Honda's influence. He was TERRIBLE in 2002 - look how many cars he must have destroyed that year!?!? Last year he suffered bad engines...possibly his own fault anyway...eitherway Button was millions of times better than him...and I already said what I think about Jense.
Seriously I think Sato is a terrible terrible driver who is actually quite dangerous.

This is just my opinion of course

The criticism in this post is pretty far over the top. One can make a point about a driver without resorting to accusing drivers of being dangerous, arrogant, etc.

I am watching the posts in this thread very closely.

**John Turner** · 13 Apr 2005, 19:54 (Ref:1277472)

I don't agree with FJ's demolition job on either Jenson or Taku, although, I do agree with Knowlesy, that the latter is a bit ragged. Take that out without too much loss of pace and I think we have a potential star.

Marbot · 13 Apr 2005, 19:54 (Ref:1277473)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

I must say, ive only seen a handful of good overtaking moves by Jenson.

This is F1 afterall.You've probably seen even less by TGF.

maximus · 13 Apr 2005, 19:57 (Ref:1277476)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula Juan

1 Germany
2 Malaysia
3 China
4 Japan

...hmmm...I dunno about you but on both of my hands I have four fingers AND a thumb! Therefore a 'handful' should consist of at least FIVE examples.

So to answer your question, YES, you do need to say more!

Well when I mean that in those races that he made more than one overtaking manouver then yes there will be quite a large handful there.

Inigo Montoya · 13 Apr 2005, 19:58 (Ref:1277479)

I think both drivers are very talented, and capable of winning races. And I agree with John, Taku is a potential star. The BAR is clearly not up to snuff, though.

Silk Cut Jaguar · 13 Apr 2005, 20:04 (Ref:1277486)

Watching Sato drive I get the impression he has total confidence in his ability, maybe even over estimates it slightly but he doesn't seem to understand "can't be done", which is fantastic for the spectators.

Button is the faster of the pair (overall) and certainly the more consistent, but Taku probably has the better race craft and is far more willing to use it.

That said, this year Taku has been ahead of Button quite a few times in the races hasn't he?

maximus · 13 Apr 2005, 20:12 (Ref:1277499)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

I think both drivers are very talented, and capable of winning races. And I agree with John, Taku is a potential star. The BAR is clearly not up to snuff, though.

No definatly not yet. (Looking promising in recent testing however!) He impressed me in Bahrain with a superb defensive display until his brakes popped.

Knowlesy · 13 Apr 2005, 20:21 (Ref:1277503)

This accusation of Sato being dangerous.....

Answer me this:

How many times has he crashed out of races since Melbourne 2004?

BootsOntheSide · 13 Apr 2005, 20:52 (Ref:1277531)

The notion of Sato being wild or dangerous is an outdated stereotype. As a rookie he was, but msot of the guys who become superstars make at least a few mistakes as rookies - even guys who become really smooth and dependable such as Prost. Considering that Taku didn't start racing of any motorized kind until he was 19, he's made incredible progress, and I really believe he's there on merit.

As for Jenson, he took on Ralf at a time when Ralf was on fire, having trounced Zanardi, looked very comfortable within BMW, haivng never raced anything faster than an F3 car, and he matched him on performances, often beating him. 2001 was a bit of a nightmare for him, to be honest I think he spent too much time on the celebrity lifestlye and not enough on the racing, but he rebuild his career impressively after that. 2002 was the last year that so-called 'experts' regarded Trulli as a driver incapable of winning races, and yet Jenson was only bettered in the team once he announced his departure. He's proved himself when it comes ot overtaking, his move on Alonso at Hcokenheim last eyar was the icing on the cake of a drive from 13th to 2nd.

Raven · 13 Apr 2005, 22:55 (Ref:1277644)

This is an important year for Sato IMO. He's not quite there yet, although I think many would agree that he does possess the essential ingredients that could potentially make him a winner. He's shown flashes of greatness, but now he needs to perform consistently to the level that we saw at Indy, Spain and Nurburgring last season. If he doesn't, I fear he may just stay where he is now for the rest of his career.

Button has come a long way over the past couple of years in my book and while he may not have the raw speed of Kimi, or the dexterity of Alonso, he ranks high in all areas and as a package, is probably one of the better all-round drivers in F1.

Kraz · 14 Apr 2005, 02:53 (Ref:1277704)

I think Sato has to prove that he is deserving of the support that Honda has given him. I agree that he isn't a dangerous driver, but I am still unsure whether he is consistant enough to warrant being a #2 driver on a top team like BAR. J.B. I think, while somewhat overrated by the British media is still a fine driver who needs a couple wins to take off the immense pressure he has been under since joining BAR.

Is he capable of being a WDC without a dominate car, I am still unsure.

Dixie Flatline · 14 Apr 2005, 04:56 (Ref:1277734)

I've been doing some research on the old Phoenix Grand Prix team as part of assessment for a sports marketing law subject I'm doing in my masters degree, and I've come across some archived news stories from grandprix.com. They were emphatic that Benetton was going to sign up Button for a long-term contract (up to 2004, IIRC) and that Alonso was looking to teams like Jaguar for his next role in Formula One, after spending 2002 testing for Benetton.

Button and Sato had good cars in 2004, and Button certainly made the most of it. Drove well on regular occasions and earned his podiums. Sato was plagued by unreliability on occasion and didn't do so well, but showed that he doesn't look out of place in Formula One, unlike many of his compatriots who have gone before him.

But, unlike a certain TGF, both at this stage in their career need good cars beneath them to showcase their talent, and the 2005 BAR iteration at present isn't good enough. However, I don't think Button would have destroyed his brakes as quickly as Sato did at Bahrain.

mp356a · 14 Apr 2005, 16:01 (Ref:1278135)

Without that third driver to help setup the cars, this team is going to struggle.
In fact, I will go so far as to say that they are not as good as they finished last year simply because of Davidson's Friday running.
Of course this is just my opinion.
Mike

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