Production Saloon Championship info req'd (late 90s)

[Tim Wilkinson]

Does anyone have an outline of the regs for the above championship, or be able to impart any info on them? It later became the Production classes of the BTCC, I think; in the late 90s it seemed to be dominated by ITRs and 306s.

I'm mostly interested in the engine regs, what modifications were allowed and what weren't. Also if anyone has any timesheets or other info that would be grand too, especially if they have info on the Astra GSis that occasionally appeared.

Cheers in advance. Mods - I didn't feel this was old enough to be in the "Historic" forum, or quite right for "Racers", but feel free to move if you think otherwise. Thanks!

Tim

[Al Weyman]

As production racing surely it was engine blueprinting only.

[Simon Mason]

I'm not sure if I still have a copy but I can clearly remember the principals of what we did to ours and why. But Production saloons bare no relation to what became the Production class of the BTCC. Those cars where what it is in effect known as Group N+.

Group N+ alowd allot more freedom of develoment over Group N. Group N was the class that killed of Production saloons in the UK with cars homolgated for racing by FIA (they cost allot more to run, higher spec than Prods). Nothing can step outside that homolgation in terms of spec. Prod saloon engines are pretty much Group N but N+ is way different, more like Super Production.

For Production cars, in terms of engine mods the long and short is you can do what you like so long as when someone technical looks at, measures and compares with official specs from the manufacturer of that exact model of car they cant find any difference. Any difference that is, from another factory supplied unmodified in any way engine. Stating the obvious perhaps but it really was as simple as that.

The engine was regarded as including the standard airbox right through to the exhaust downpipe.

I will take a look anyway.

[R59]

IIRC, Gp N+ or Super Production - could see 270bhp for a 2L engine, compared to 300bhp for the SuperTouring spec. The layout had to be the same (no reverse heads, no engines so tipped over and moved back that you look under the bonnet and think "where the heck is that engine!", and I think they had to use the same transmission casing as standard. Standard "type" suspension, ie: same pickup points, and operation, but dampers/springs were free. Can't remember if they were allowed rose joints....

Rob.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Thanks for the info so far. Where did National Saloons fit in? I've found reference to both Production and National, were they one and the same? When did Group N (the standard stuff as opposed to Grp N+) stop and the others begin?

[Simon Mason]

National saloons where the first UK Group N cars. Sponsored by Esso.

Prods ran until about 94 but no later sponsored by Firestone and previously Uniroyal. There was another big title sponsor like autowindscreens or something but can't remember exactly I'm afraid.

The Group N thing started in 91 / 92 as I recall. It sort of disapeared for a few years (it was serious money to do) then re apeared on the back of the BTCC in N+ form.

[kipper]

Before being part of the BTCC, I seem to remember the championship running under the guise of the National Saloon Car Cup as part of the F3/GT Powertour and as a British GP support race and was even televised on Channel 4. Some of the frontrunners were Dan Eaves and Toni Ruokonen in Vic Lee Peugeot 306s.

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by racing59

Can't remember if they were allowed rose joints....

We ran some Gr N+ in Germany, but rosejoints were not allowed (at least there).
And as I made some inquiries in those days to run the cars in the UK, they said the cars were the same.

Somehow we never ran them abroad, shame really.
But in a corner in the shop sits a yellow 306 GTI.

[Tim Wilkinson]

It's the National Saloon Car Cup i'm interested in, then, and the "standard measurement" engine regs makes sense. 270bhp from that would be a huge task tho, wouldn't it?

It seems like a lot of series used very similar names, hence a bit of confusion on my part.

[Woolley]

Yes, several of them at the same time. I think the series you're talking about was the one that had the Honda junior team which produced James Thompson as a leading driver?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Yes, several of them at the same time. I think the series you're talking about was the one that had the Honda junior team which produced James Thompson as a leading driver?

James Thompson was the 1993 champion of the National Saloon Car Cup in a Mardi Gras Honda.

[R59]

Originally Posted by kipper

James Thompson was the 1993 champion of the National Saloon Car Cup in a Mardi Gras Honda.

He was certainly quick.
Mardi Gras took 1st to 7th in the class with the Civic's, as well as overall championship honours.
Graham Churchill 2nd
Jason Yeomans 3rd
Piers Johnson 4th
Andy Charsley 5th
Kirsten Kolby 6th
Claire Redgrave 7th

[Simon Mason]

OK if your talking about the National Saloon Car Cup your definately talking pure FIA Group N regs and they have'nt changed.

If you know what car it is your looking at go to http://www.fia.com/sport/Homologatio..._vehicles.html and look up the car you want. You will have to pay for the specific homolgation papers to the car tho but they are will be the definative for your model.

[Simon Mason]

Forgot to point out Teej that the quotes of 270bhp etc are for N+ cars not N (production). A group N Honda Civic Type R for example is around 225 to 230bhp region an N+ version can be as much 270 an example.

[Tim Wilkinson]

It was whatever series Paul Booth and Chris Osbourne ran Astra GSis in. From a search on here, Paul is mentioned as being entered in the NSC when it involved the 306s and ITRs early in 2000 (part of the Powertour). I think this was Group N+, but may be wrong.

To put the questions I've been asking in perspective, I have an engine (in bits) from one of these cars, and I have been given a power figure that it was claimed to be running. I'm trying to ascertain how likely it is that this figure is possible.

[Simon Mason]

Hmmm yes Ok that was a grey period for me and saloon cars. I have sent you a PM of who you need to speak to at the BRDC. He will have a copy.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Thanks Simon, much obliged.

[giles d]

Teej,

My brother, Craig Dawson, has been racing the very car you talk of this year very succesfully in the Hot Hatch Championship (won 3 out of 5 round we did). We have that cars info etc and all the bits! so talk to us! We are at the Show this week, all four days. Formula Brookes Stand by the BRSCC stand.

We also ran Alistair Inglis and Andrew Delahunty in the Toyota Carina in National Saloons or Saloon 2000 as it began life, my dad wrote the regs your after!

Giles