WTF is wrong with these guys?

[ttc]

DC fumes at red flag decision

David Coulthard was one of the first to speak out against the decision. "It's so unusual to have a red flag," he said to The Sun. "The safety car was out and they had 2½ minutes - minimum - to clear the track before we went over it. They could have cleared one side and let us go. "I know it's a difficult decision. But youhave to have consistency. Unless a driver is hurt, they do not normally stop races. Accidents or injury off the track is not normally a reason to stop the race. There are lots of races that would have benefited from being red-flagged to give people a show. "You want to see all the cars race, you don't want to see everyone pile up on the first corner, everyone go off and Minardi win! A red flag is just so very rare. Maybe when I have seen all the facts it will be as clear as the b***s on a dog and I will change my mind."

Hmm... shooting his mouth off EVEN WHEN HE KNOWS he doesn't have all the facts.

Jacques Villeneuve also expressed his astonishment at the FIA's decision to re-start the race. "I was surprised when there was a red flag, because we already went through the debris once," he commented in the post race press conference. "By then the track was clean, so the most dangerous moment of the race is actually the start, so I was really, really surprised. I saw no reason to stop the race."

Which racetrack is JV racing??? Perhaps he needs to check his eyesights.

[Ralf's Girl]

Interesting that they wouldn't mind racing through a lot of sharp debris...most of the track was clean, Villeneuve was right about that. But the first corner was anything but clean, and if one of those two had had a tyre blowout and crashed at 200mph they would have complained non-stop about how it was dangerous to make them drive through all those shards of carbon fibre on the track.

[Liz]

Well, of course the subtext of all this moaning is that a red flag gave TGF the chance to get into his backup car and restart the race.

But these two old friends wouldn't say something as politically incorrect as that, would they?

[f1manoz]

I have to admit I was surprised when they threw out the red flag after they had sent out the safety car, but I think the move made was more of common sense than anything. The first corner was littered with carbon fibre debris, and I'm sure no driver would want to suffer a tyre blow out ala Mika Hakkinen in 1999 at the same circuit.

I've read all the comments about it and have to say it is all BS really. I'm no TGF fan, but I know when common sense has to be used, and the decision on the whole was the correct one.

And TGF did eventually retire anyway didn't he?? So what the hell is all the fuss about!!!

[Suzy]

Hi folks

Firstly, I would like to apologise for the remarks made by Ron Dennis and David Coulthard as I know they won't do it themselves. You know, sometimes I feel really embarrassed to be a McLaren supporter - especially when one of our drivers comes out with gibberish like that. Okay, I admit that I am not exactly a DC supporter and I am a Michael supporter, but I still feel that the right decision was to stop the race - with all that debris around there could have been a nasty accident There were also three sweepers on the track (just an added hazzard to weave around). Perhaps DC, Ron and Jacques should think about what would happen if THEY had been in Michael's position. I reckon they'd have been squealing for a red flag.

Anyway, if DC and Ron want to know what debris can do to a car perhaps they ought to cast their mind back to Adelaide 1995. Whatever caused the puncture on Mika's car (debris, kerb - who knows?), it left their driver in a coma, deaf in one ear and with a partially-paralysed face (on the left) because the nerve endings have been permanently damaged!

Kind regards

Suzy

[KC]

I for one was not surprised when the red flag was shown. I can only remember one time that MS has been taken off in the first turn and there was no red flag. The race where his brother took him off while driving for Jordan.

There was absolutley no way that MS was not going to be in the race at the German GP. Had that been RB involved in that shunt the race would have resumed under the safety car until the mess was cleaned up by the second lap.

I find it funny when DC voices his displeasure tat soemthing that happens he considered a whiner when every single person on this board would have done and said the very same thing. Does anyone think that MS would have said the same thing? Of course he would have. And so would Jean Todt. So instead of slagging off anyone who even tries to compete with MS, why not just support the racer you like and enjoy and leave it at that.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by KC
I can only remember one time that MS has been taken off in the first turn and there was no red flag. The race where his brother took him off while driving for Jordan.

Not to be argumentative, but what about Austria 2000?

Originally posted by KC
There was absolutley no way that MS was not going to be in the race at the German GP.

Oh yes, and last years German Grand Prix? He was out 1st corner, lap 1. He did'nt get a red flag for that one.

Originally posted by KC
I find it funny when DC voices his displeasure tat soemthing that happens he considered a whiner when every single person on this board would have done and said the very same thing. Does anyone think that MS would have said the same thing? Of course he would have. And so would Jean Todt. So instead of slagging off anyone who even tries to compete with MS, why not just support the racer you like and enjoy and leave it at that.

I;m sorry KC, but as others have said previously, it would have been criminally negligant and dangerous to keep racing especially at this track where the speeds are so high. The only alternative that may have been appropriate was to detour the cars down pit lane and remain under safety car. Can this be done in F1?

BTW, DC did jump up and down last year at Monza demanding the red flag.

[Laagri]

Wrex wrote:
BTW, DC did jump up and down last year at Monza demanding the red flag.

Yes, he did, but then there was that marshal lying injured (fatally, as it turned out) at the side of the track. I thought it was sickening that the Monza race carried on, even behind the safety car, while it was patently obvious that there was a marshal fighting for his life just the other side of the barrier.

I'm undecided on the Hockenheim incident, but tend towards the view that the red flag was the right decision. But last year at Monza, there is no doubt that the race should have been stopped.

[KC]

So was it not criminally negligent to force the cars to drive through the scattered debris and not force a mandatory tire change?

As both DC and JV reported the red flag was issued after the cars had completed one lap. Therefore the race has commenced. I believe the rules state that the race may not be rejoined after it has completed one lap. Now maybe they are wrong or I am wrong, but TV coverage of the event did not show them waving the flag until the cars were already driving through the debris on lap 2.

Maybe I am being too cynical, but F1 is not about racing anymore. It used to be. But now it is more like professional wrestling where the show is everything. Over 100,000 people came to see MS get his 51st win and his Ferrari failed him on the start. Can anyone here say honestly that race have been red-flagged if it had been Verstappen taken out or Montoya even? I cannot.

If it was just a safety issue, then why wasn't the British GP red-flagged when 4 cars went off and brought gravel back onto the racing line? Certainly it was not nearly the level of debris that was on the track at Hockenheim, but it was unsafe nonetheless.

[ttc]

Originally posted by KC
As both DC and JV reported the red flag was issued after the cars had completed one lap. Therefore the race has commenced. I believe the rules state that the race may not be rejoined after it has completed one lap. Now maybe they are wrong or I am wrong, but TV coverage of the event did not show them waving the flag until the cars were already driving through the debris on lap 2.

You thought wrong.

STOPPING A RACE
Article 156)
The procedure to be followed varies according to the number of laps completed by the race leader before the signal to stop the race was given :

Case A. Less than two full laps. If the race can be restarted, Article 157 will apply.

RESTARTING A RACE
157) Case A.
a) The original start shall be deemed null and void.
b) The length of the restarted race will be the full original race distance.
c) The drivers who are eligible to take part in the race shall be eligible for the restart either in their original car or in a spare car.

Can anyone here say honestly that race have been red-flagged if it had been Verstappen taken out or Montoya even? I cannot.

I'm sorry your views of FIA and everyone involved in organizing the races are THAT negative. However, given the scope of the incident, it does indeed called for a red-flag, whoever was involved.

[TimD]

I was surprised and delighted at the use of the red flag. I am unconvinced that there was any pro-Schumacher subtext to it, because surely if the show is the thing, anything that prolongs the championship battle and allows Ralf the chance to sell a few more souvenirs on home turf is just what they needed.

So a race with Schumacher senior out of the reckoning has got to be good for Bernie's bank account.

What is not good for Bernie's bank account is restive television companies, and television companies have schedules to keep to, and have no interest in the show stopping to pick up the pieces. There are very real reasons why the FIA are desperate not to red-flag at all costs, and they are all financial.

But I still remember the shards of Benetton scattered across the startline and into Tamburello at Imola in 1994. And there is a clear still photograph of Ayrton Senna's Williams about to run over a big piece of carbon fibre on his very last lap under caution.

And with that memory weighing heavily, I will always applaud a decision to stop a race for safety.

Call me cynical, but for all the right reasons, I hope.

[EERO]

I'm not disputing the use of the red flag, it was absolutely the correct decision. However, I would like to know why the decision was delayed UNTIL the field had already passed by the debris. It was apparent as the train approached the first turn, that the racing surface was littered with carbon fibre.

Laagri is absolutely right to bring up Monza, (and Melbourne as well)-The FIA should be shrewd enough not to act with any hint of inconsistency. Had they done the right thing on the two occaisions mentioned above, NO ONE would question the decision to halt the race yesterday.

[KC]

I stand corrected on the issue of whether he could rejoin the race. According to the rules, he is allowed to do so. I also do not have an issue with the stwewards using the red flag to address the safety concerns with all the debris. But I do think every effort would have been made to clear the track without a red flag if it involved a driver other than MS.

Don't get me wrong, MS has earned every point he and Ferrari have taken this year. McLaren have dropped the ball and Ferrari and MS have picked it up and ran away with it. No amount of massaging will keep the points race live this year unless MS cannot complete the season and I sincerely hope that does not happen.

However, the show was not about a championship battle. The giant sea of red flags, shirts, and hats meant that the show was about MS getting that historic win. He deserves it, however, I do think that no one else on the track would have gotten the same benefit if they had been struck by Burti.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by EERO
......However, I would like to know why the decision was delayed UNTIL the field had already passed by the debris. It was apparent as the train approached the first turn, that the racing surface was littered with carbon fibre.

Laagri is absolutely right to bring up Monza, (and Melbourne as well)-The FIA should be shrewd enough not to act with any hint of inconsistency. Had they done the right thing on the two occaisions mentioned above, NO ONE would question the decision to halt the race yesterday.

Don't get me wrong about Monza, that race and Melbourne should have been red flagged.

I don't understand the delay either. As soon as I saw the cars driving down pit straight, I thought "What are they doing?".

Consistantly inconsistant

[Liz]

Apparently Prof. Watkins voiced his outrage to Bernie (and everyone) about Monza last year; as he says in his new book (shameless plug):

"There seemed to be considerable reluctance in race control to take this course [red flag the race] and Herbie (Blash: FIA Observer) asked if we could manage with the safety car. Two weeks later at Indianapolis, Bernie [Ecclestone] said he thought that if the safety car needed to be out for more than three laps the race should be stopped." As the cars picked their way through the debris field on the first lap, going to both sides, it was very clear to anyone that it would take more than three laps to clean up the mess, and therefore the red flag was thrown.

I do wonder if they would have red-flagged the race for anyone not of the German persuasion, but that is a question that will never be answered and I hope it is only one of those blue-sky wonderings for other tracks too.

If the FIA didn't keep behaving like the WWF, these questions would not keep cropping up.

[ttc]

Originally posted by Liz
If the FIA didn't keep behaving like the WWF, these questions would not keep cropping up.

Just wondering, is this red flag thingy THUS indication/evidence/proof that the FIA is trying NOT to be like WWF?

Or can they do NO right?

[Liz]

This was a correct decision. But had they not made so many politically-motivated, round-the-twist, obviously and blatantly biased decisions in the past, no one would question whether this was yet another one.

IMO it was the correct decision.

[Roy2]

I was happy to see them red flag the race. For safety reasons of course, but also because it allowed MS to race. What's an F1 race today without Schumacher? The championship is the concern of the teams and drivers, but the race should belong to the fans. I want to see all the big dogs in it, thanks.

Haven't we seen enough races ruined this year by launch control failures eliminating top drivers from the race, and putting pole winners at the back of the grid? If it turns out that once again it's MS who benefits, then that's just the luck of it

If the rules permit a restart, and a restart will let everybody race, then let's have it.