A way to increase grids

[Champ69]

A silly idea????

Why don't the FIA allow teams to compete in F1 without doing the whole season.

Any team should be able turn up to a race and as long as they pass a prequalifying (at the moment F1 has 20 cars) so up to 4 cars would be able to move into the main qualifying session (107% rule stands), they would be able to build their cars from scratch or buy a teams previous seasons car.

or

FIA allow a wild card entry (like the bikes do) where a driver from the country the race is being held is entered in the third car – I have no idea how they would choose which teams could run the third car. (the drivers must have the relevant licence).

Got any other ideas, They will never happen but who knows??

[Gt_R]

It would kind of mess up the WDC won't it? And i think teams would find it embarrassing if their guest driver trounce their regular driivers.Also, what would happen would be that teams fear that the 3rd driver is solely brought to hinder their oppositions as obstacles..


I always thought that to promote F1 grid, they had 2 problems to address.

Firstly, make it more assessible to potential private team owners. Secondly, to make F1 seem an investment worth making by the potential entries.

First. With a majority of main manufacturers already in F1, to increase grid would mean more privateer teams. But most find it hard to justify the high "deposit" required to secure a place. Hence, the deterrence make the investment most unwanting due to the excessively high risk. Lower the entry deposit and cost of F1 would generate more interest in competing.

Second. Nobody came F1 to throw money into the bin. What privateer teams know is that there is no way they could take on 5 or more multi-billion mega car empires and stand much chance of winning a race, let alone a WDC/WCC. Hence, why incur cost when you don't win??? By creating a different points system where we have an overall points board, a works points board, and a privateer points board, we are able to ensure that privateer teams hard work are recognised. Hence, the best will win. If you are the best privateer team, you still get rewards, and sponsors , for the efforts.

[Champ69]

I do like the idea of privateer championship and a WDC & WCC. Like the days when they had turbos and non turbos racing, I think it was called the Collin Chapman trophy or something??????

[DNQ]

Jim Clark Cup.

[sgw2]

There are three things FIA needs to do.

1) Reduce costs, limiting technologies (as Mosley seeks)
2) Restructure the Points based travel fund from the current system that looks something like this (in $ M) for the top twleve teams

100-90-80-70-60-50-40-30-20-10-0-0

To something like this:

80-70-60-55-50-45-40-35-35-30-25-25

3) Lower the entry fee from (IIRC) $100 M to say $40 M for a new team.

In the long run forcing engine suppliers to sell leases to at least two teams at a set price of say $15 M, with engines distributed through FIA to assure equal treatment.

The FIA could also scrutinize budgets to assure that teams do not go in the red. But the biggest benefit of balancing the travel monies is that it makes franchises worth more even at the back of the grid and it assures more competitive budgets - more parity.

Jordan will survive thsi year because of the travel money thy will get (roughly $50 M), but the death spiral the current system has built in may see their budget halved again next year. This is what killed many teams. The system was designed to wean out weak sisters when there were as many as 32 cars showing up for races. But the system worked to well and has never been adjusted for the current finacial situation or the idea of a dozen permanent franchises.

Adjusting the payout can be done immediately and will reap immediate benefits. Technical rule cahnges could take a few years to have an impact.

Its' too obvious, and greedy men like Frank Williams and Ron Dennis will of course vote against it. But it is the right thing to do.

[Mark Webber]

how about a entry fee discount for make to supply a second team via badge engernering ie Renault starting a 2nd team baged Nissan
2. improving TV world wide more viewers = more xposure
3. rewrite the teams concord agreement so all team get a equal peice of the pie

[Armco Bender]

Where do you get an F1 car from these days though?,you can't go to March and buy a chassis and put a DFV on the back and turn up a race anymore.

[BootsOntheSide]

Maybe they could make it compulsory to sell last year's chassis to private entries, and then have a second points system for them, although the guys with 2002 Ferraris can challenge the main 2003 cars anyway. Privateers can no longer compete with manufacturers when it comes to building cars. Jordan are headed for the wall and Minardi are going to struggle to beat the big boys.

[woodbine]

Lower the entry fee from (IIRC) $100 M to say $40 M for a new team.

It's not an entry fee. Its a refundable deposit. The team receives over (I think) its first two seasons. It was brought in to stop teams coming in with insufficient funding (Simtek, Lola, Pacific etc) and going bust shortly after.

Where do you get an F1 car from these days though?,you can't go to March and buy a chassis and put a DFV on the back and turn up a race anymore.

Maybe they should let teams buy cars from other teams?

[shiny side up!]

Doesn't the Concorde Agreement currently limit the grid to 24 cars? If so, there isn't a whole lot of room to bring in private entries, although I agree that 24 would be much more fun than 20 (or 18...).

Also, it will never really be viable to sell last year's car to a privateer entry. Even if you were to convince Ferrari to sell you last year's car, without the engineering data (sure as heck won't give you that), the molds for spare carbon work, all the other replacement parts you would need... you are not going to get very far at all.

Under the current Formula, none of this can change. I look forward to the restructuring of the Concorde agreement to help absolve some of these problems, I just wish it wasn't still years away...

[sgw2]

The deposit of $50 or $100 M (I forget which) is a huge sum of money. Franklly only NASCAR/IRL Penske could come up with that. No way could Jackie Stewart, Alain Prost, Eddie Jordan, Peter Sauber, Tom Walkinshaw or Paul Stoddard start a team whith that deposit. Who has that kind of money to set aside? And for what? Under the current system you will probably be mired like Toyota in the range of $0 to $10 M travel funds for a couple of years. Ask BAR as well.

That steep step was designed to make F1 a manufacturer's series. But there are no manufacturer's left to step in (GM wont put that much up). F1 has become a death race for top tier Privateers. This needs to be put to bed.

Second the Concorde agreement needs to make the payoff far better for the back half of the field. It is ridiculous that 50% of all the money goes to just three teams, Ferrari BMW-Williams and Mercedes Benz-McLaren, who are already loaded.

As I said the current system is designed to ELIMINATE teams, not support them. It is designed to ELIMINATE Privateer teams, not support them. For F1 to have a lifespan of more than 3-4 years, it needs to reverse this direction, and become a system that forces engines to be distributed evenly, and which supports a dozen two car teams, instead of at best 8 teams, mostly manufacturers. Fans are turning off becuase only a handful of cars are even capable of scoring points. The disparity is too great.

Keep the current system and F1 will soon be down to 16 cars. Minardi is within a year of death, Jordan perhaps two years. Sooner or later Ford or Honda or BMW or Mercedes Benz will withdraw. And I think sooner. Manufacturer's themselves are looking at rally and American NASCAR (Toyota) as better returns.

The number one thing F1 much adjust is the money distribution. Engine supply and cost second (long term), and the lesser items like driver aids. It needs to be possible to race competitively in F1 with a staff of less than 100 employees. And the team needs to make money. Do that and you'll stop seeing pay drivers. The product will improve and so will the racing and the depth.

[JonesF1]

Money-wise the current formula is majorly flawed. Winning teams keep on winning and losing teams keep on losing. More money should be given to the teams, it should be distributed more evenly, and special contengencies should be given to privateers. How can a team like Minardi compete with 1/10th the budget of a top 3 team? The FIA should take precautions before its too late.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Champ69
the Collin Chapman trophy or something??????

Originally posted by DNQ
Jim Clark Cup

It was the Colin Champman Trophy for Teams and the Jim Clark Cup for drivers.

[ss_collins]

simply allow teams to buy old second hand cars and bits and turn up and race them like F1 used to be. I was appalled when Phoenix were not allowed to race, the FIA should promoting outfits like that, it gets more cars on the grid and makes for more interesting racing. Its ridiculous that they don't let them in. Just make the privateer inelegible for the TV money, WCC (give privateers the JCC) and the desicion making stuff. Manufacturers should have to run two cars at all races as now unless they can show exceptional financial hardship. Privateers teams would be allowed to run one car teams but if they do they must share garages/paddock space. Privateers should not have to pay the big championship entry fees, but should have to commit to a minimum number of races. The NDS euroboss series should adopot the privateer F1 rules as an extra class and become a full blown European F1 championship. so there

[steve_r]

A privateer with a second-hand car would need a huge amount of backing, staff, computers and money even to enter one race, let alone qualify within 107%

I think that privateers entering single races is not a realistic answer to the diminshing F1 grids.

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by Gt_R
And i think teams would find it embarrassing if their guest driver trounce their regular driivers.

Some Japanese guestdriver (can't remember his name though) trounced the regular Suzukidrivers at his hometrack (Suzuka IIRC) in the MotoGP last year, by coming 2nd while the regulars where way behind (7th-10th place or so).

That was quite embarassing for the regulars (Kenny Roberts Jnr. (USA) and Sete Gibernau (ESP))....

[Red]

Originally posted by ss_collins
I was appalled when Phoenix were not allowed to race,

Phoenix WAS allowed to race. To race, however 'to race' was not their intention. They just wanted to buy (cheap) the money that Prost was entitled to get and quit soon after. Righteously, FIA/FOCA opposed.

the FIA should promoting outfits like that, it gets more cars on the grid and makes for more interesting racing. Its ridiculous that they don't let them in. Just make the privateer inelegible for the TV money, WCC (give privateers the JCC) and the desicion making stuff.

Interesting. So, any not so wealthy privateer could (I mean would be allowed to) start a F1 endeavour. Since they are not entitled to TV money, they would fund their efforts with..? :confused:

Originally posted by sgw2
The deposit of $50 or $100 M (I forget which) is a huge sum of money. Franklly only NASCAR/IRL Penske could come up with that. No way could Jackie Stewart, Alain Prost, Eddie Jordan, Peter Sauber, Tom Walkinshaw or Paul Stoddard start a team whith that deposit. [...]

The deposit is $48 million. Not 100. It has to be made once, when you start the new F1 team and is refunded in the first year. It is NOT meant to discourage new entries; it is just a precaution measure meant to ensure that the team will not go bust after first couple of races. Prost (or BAR or Stoddard) did not have to come up with it, since they bought an existing team. The deposit should be made by new entrants, like Toyota for example. Oh yeah, forgot: as history proved, Jackie Stewart COULD come up with that money.

Second the Concorde agreement needs to make the payoff far better for the back half of the field. It is ridiculous that 50% of all the money goes to just three teams, Ferrari BMW-Williams and Mercedes Benz-McLaren, who are already loaded.

Where did you get that? :confused: Actually the TV money + prize money (the allocation fund) is split more evenly than we suspect. For example, half of the total amount is equally divided among all teams who have competed in that year.