What is the most important brand of sports cars of England?

[hondafan37]

It's a curiosity for me, I'm on the other side of the world and the Aston Martins drive me crazy especially now that the Valquiria V12 is coming to the WEC.... But I want to know what the English think, Aston Martin, Jaguar, McLaren, Lotus?

[Adam43]

Morgan

It’s a good question. In the 21st century, probably McLaren. In a very debatable question.

[broadrun96]

Nope, it's always Morgan. I would say Jensen or Austin Healy but maybe that's me.... Ok yeah, that's just me

[JT240Z]

Never knew there was a "most important" car from England anymore.

Lucas refrigerators come to mind.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Nope, it's always Morgan. I would say Jensen or Austin Healy but maybe that's me.... Ok yeah, that's just me

Not too far from where I live there is a place that restores and sells old cars. They often have a Healey or two in there. I've always fancied one.... When I win the lottery or get a big win on the Premium Bonds, who knows.....

[veeten]

Morgan - trees

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not too far from where I live there is a place that restores and sells old cars. They often have a Healey or two in there. I've always fancied one.... When I win the lottery or get a big win on the Premium Bonds, who knows.....

Grew up with a 64 (I think) Spridget in the garage, it's still there and hasn't moved yet its own power for probably 35 years and has 2 engines in milk crates, both seized completely. There's one not too far away on auction for 2k, thankfully I don't have a garage or it would be purchased

[MitchZ06]

Lister, their mono pumps are world class robust. Oh wait wrong Lister....

[JT240Z]

In case it hasn't become abundantly clear Hondafan37, you might want to consider posting this in the ACO section of this forum. More Brits probably posting there.

[Adam43]

Good plan. Moved to there.

[RL17]

Probably biased towards Aston Martin Lagonda as have manual Vantage. Do have an interest in Bentley but auto only puts me off but best LM heritage. Also had a great engined Jaguar saloon but they have gone E for last five years ago.

Lotus pretty good with current and recent cars. McLaren don’t really have that much history away from recent F1.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by RL17

Probably biased towards Aston Martin Lagonda as have manual Vantage. Do have an interest in Bentley but auto only puts me off but best LM heritage. Also had a great engined Jaguar saloon but they have gone E for last five years ago.



Lotus pretty good with current and recent cars. McLaren don’t really have that much history away from recent F1.

So the McLaren CanAm cars were what exactly??

[RL17]

Chevy engined race cars of a great designers NZ owned team (later) US owned.

Little connection to road car manufacturer that started in 1980s and didn’t produce a road car until 1990’s.

And from an English car firm viewpoint the Marlboro McLauren F1 team (Project 4/Ron Dennis era) far outshadows Can-Am period.

[broadrun96]

And yet McLaren keeps them in their museum

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by RL17

Chevy engined race cars of a great designers NZ owned team (later) US owned.

Little connection to road car manufacturer that started in 1980s and didn’t produce a road car until 1990’s.

And from an English car firm viewpoint the Marlboro McLauren F1 team (Project 4/Ron Dennis era) far outshadows Can-Am period.

Your comment shows your age.
People alive in the early 1960's know who John Cooper was and the people who drove them....
And later drove cars of their own design... (Brabham, McLaren and later Dan Gurney....)
McLaren has never been US owned. After Bruce's death it had an American CEO (Teddy Mayer) but ownership passed to Ron Dennis, and then the Middle East.
Can Am in the 60's carried as much prestige in real terms as Indy or F1, but that was then. If you weren't alive then you wouldn't know.

[RL17]

The post asked for opinions.

Ron Dennis and Project 4 only came in as the team was struggling more than 10 years or so after Bruce McLaren died so fairly sure US owned for part.

Ron Dennis was fairly shrewd and kept an awful lot of F1 cars and bought back the Austin and some of the Can-Am cars to help energise the workforce and build a heritage which helps the brands.

1990s road car called F1. The current road cars pretty much all started in 2010, just 13 years ago.

They trot a lot of F1 cars and the odd Can-Am car at Goodwood events (Bruce McLaren connection) and the history does help the brand.

Marketing - like Aston celebrating 100 years of F1 history with tenuous links and only turning up about 5 or 6 years.

I think they’re struggling recently as have sold off the museum cars to Mumtalakat.

Think it’s 180 plus wins in F1 plus 20 championships, 1 of which was the 1968 car and two of the championships in 1970s (James Hunt’s stands out in UK on early period).

So that’s what it’s known for here and Ron Dennis is more synonymous with McLaren F1 team and especially the road cars and Woking (where he made the builders line up all the screw heads perfectly).

Lotus connection with Colin Chapman is so much stronger/longer than Bruce McLarens with the McKaren road cars. As WO’s with Bentley (even though he spent wine with Rolls Royce, Lagonda and his engines have a big connection with AML success in 1950’s). But AML has a long if not successful road car story from London, Feltham, Newport Pagnell, Bloxham, a tractor factory or two plus Wales now.

Lionel Martin and going back to 1913 also pretty tenuous - Bamford probably more involved in early cars. But they were roadcar builders (even if they just built a handful). AML timeline in their small house collection forgets 1935 too!, and steers away from WO.

Jaguar cars has great history through William Lyon’s, Swallow and SS from up North to all over Coventry and midlands and building cars in a former Spitfire factory.

Lotus has until fairly recently had smaller facilities (underdog) in Norfolk (it’s is colour famous there) most of the others but a long road car history compared to McLaren.

McLaren road cars have really only produced cars in any numbers since 2014. Squeaky clean, well made carbon fibre, impractical cars all made in a ultra modern squeaky clean facility associated with Ron Dennis (not the most loved man in F1). Mainly similar looking cars named either 500 or 700 or something. Have ramped up production and chassis now made in Rotherham apparently. So they do lack history and patina so not surprising they make the most of the racing history to stretch their timeline

[GingerPixel]

Surely the right answer is Bentley here.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

Surely the right answer is Bentley here.

Can a brand without a current Sports Car be considered?

I'm guessing, with the range of options to pick from, the OP is looking at historical importance rather than current?

My own opinion is that the only two still UK-owned would be McLaren and Aston Martin. And from those two, I would put AM forward.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by RL17

The post asked for opinions.

Ron Dennis and Project 4 only came in as the team was struggling more than 10 years or so after Bruce McLaren died so fairly sure US owned for part.

Ron Dennis was fairly shrewd and kept an awful lot of F1 cars and bought back the Austin and some of the Can-Am cars to help energise the workforce and build a heritage which helps the brands.

1990s road car called F1. The current road cars pretty much all started in 2010, just 13 years ago.

They trot a lot of F1 cars and the odd Can-Am car at Goodwood events (Bruce McLaren connection) and the history does help the brand.

Marketing - like Aston celebrating 100 years of F1 history with tenuous links and only turning up about 5 or 6 years.

I think they’re struggling recently as have sold off the museum cars to Mumtalakat.

Think it’s 180 plus wins in F1 plus 20 championships, 1 of which was the 1968 car and two of the championships in 1970s (James Hunt’s stands out in UK on early period).

So that’s what it’s known for here and Ron Dennis is more synonymous with McLaren F1 team and especially the road cars and Woking (where he made the builders line up all the screw heads perfectly).

Lotus connection with Colin Chapman is so much stronger/longer than Bruce McLarens with the McKaren road cars. As WO’s with Bentley (even though he spent wine with Rolls Royce, Lagonda and his engines have a big connection with AML success in 1950’s). But AML has a long if not successful road car story from London, Feltham, Newport Pagnell, Bloxham, a tractor factory or two plus Wales now.

Lionel Martin and going back to 1913 also pretty tenuous - Bamford probably more involved in early cars. But they were roadcar builders (even if they just built a handful). AML timeline in their small house collection forgets 1935 too!, and steers away from WO.

Jaguar cars has great history through William Lyon’s, Swallow and SS from up North to all over Coventry and midlands and building cars in a former Spitfire factory.

Lotus has until fairly recently had smaller facilities (underdog) in Norfolk (it’s is colour famous there) most of the others but a long road car history compared to McLaren.

McLaren road cars have really only produced cars in any numbers since 2014. Squeaky clean, well made carbon fibre, impractical cars all made in a ultra modern squeaky clean facility associated with Ron Dennis (not the most loved man in F1). Mainly similar looking cars named either 500 or 700 or something. Have ramped up production and chassis now made in Rotherham apparently. So they do lack history and patina so not surprising they make the most of the racing history to stretch their timeline

Very good post. The OP's use of the word important is interesting too.

I would say all of the above would have a shout, plus undoubtedly MG and also probably TVR too - both for the numbers sold.

McLaren road cars are also interesting. Look great, and lots of people would have one, including myself, but not too sure too many would buy another, again including myself. Based on not being that great in reality and reliability being very poor. The overall ownership experience is a long way from good.

[broadrun96]

But are either truly UK owned? I would say registered yes but owned? Aston at least has a Canadian at the helm of the likely Canadian, US, UK and others investment group and how much of McLaren is owned by parties in the ME?

Not to denigrate either of them for their strategies to stay afloat at all

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

But are either truly UK owned?

Which either?

If you mean MG, while they may now be a cheap and nasty Chinese car maker, their history was surely very, very British.

TVR was also emphatically British, even if they used a lot of US-derived engines.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

But are either truly UK owned? I would say registered yes but owned? Aston at least has a Canadian at the helm of the likely Canadian, US, UK and others investment group and how much of McLaren is owned by parties in the ME?

Not to denigrate either of them for their strategies to stay afloat at all

I think most large companies have a global ownership nowadays. I was just referring to the fact that, of the current major UK car manufacturers, those two are the only ones that have their parent company registered as a UK business. On reflection, I should also have included Morgan.

Aston Martin - Aston Martin Lagonda Global Holdings PLC (UK)
Bentley - Volkswagen AG (Germany)
Jaguar - Tata Motors (India)
Land Rover - Tata Motors (India)
Lotus - Geely (China)
McLaren - McLaren Group (UK)
MG - SAIC Motor (China)
Mini - BMW (Germany)
Morgan - Investindustrial (UK)
Rolls-Royce - BMW (Germany)
Vauxhall - Stellantis (Netherlands)


Having gone slightly off topic, I think the list of marques that are considered British does reflect the sporting heritage of the UK. Nearly all on the list have a history of Sports Cars in some form or other.

I wonder if there would ever be a grid featuring Aston Martin, Bentley, Jaguar, Lotus, McLaren, MG and Morgan in the future?

[RL17]

AML (car firm not F1) team are owned mainly by Stroll run consortium, PIF (Saudi state investment firm - pretty sure an Aramco connection to them), Geely (China - own Lotus and other car firms) plus Mercedes (sure own 10% or so and have engine supply plus infotainment supply contracts (as long as it’s not too new!). Some public shares but diluted to de-minimis.

Pre-Stroll it was mainly Italian and ME investment funds and before that Ford.

McLaren mainly controlled by Mumtalakat (Bahrain Sovereign Wealth Fund) and previously had Ron Dennis, TAG (French?) and other investors.

Jaguar owned by Indian conglomerate who also own Tetley tea (not sure if still do) plus mainly Indian car and truck firms. They were in Ford Luxury vehicles with AML and Volvo in the not too distant past.

AML cars still made in England and Wales (Sf Athan). Engines now AMG but previously mainly built in a corner of Ford Cologne plant (V12s last few now I think). Some 4 doors were made in Austria a while back initially.

Lotus in Norfolk.

MG is just a brand for Chinese cars with heavy subsidies.

TVR on hold - did see a new one a few years back at St Saturnin. Ownership changed a long while ago.

Think Jaguar are scaling back UK production for Jaguar at least - EVs are making that more tricky.

So McLaren are pretty much made in England.

On my view it’s jobs and factories that make the cars from England rather than ultimate ownership.

Were the McLaren Can-Am cars made in Rye in Sussex? (Elva) - seems a curious connection as Weslake (Gurney connections) were they too is a small seaside town. Jota are in Sussex in countryside in middle of nowhere too.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by RL17

AML (car firm not F1) team are owned mainly by Stroll run consortium, PIF (Saudi state investment firm - pretty sure an Aramco connection to them), Geely (China - own Lotus and other car firms) plus Mercedes (sure own 10% or so and have engine supply plus infotainment supply contracts (as long as it’s not too new!). Some public shares but diluted to de-minimis.

Pre-Stroll it was mainly Italian and ME investment funds and before that Ford.

McLaren mainly controlled by Mumtalakat (Bahrain Sovereign Wealth Fund) and previously had Ron Dennis, TAG (French?) and other investors.

Jaguar owned by Indian conglomerate who also own Tetley tea (not sure if still do) plus mainly Indian car and truck firms. They were in Ford Luxury vehicles with AML and Volvo in the not too distant past.

AML cars still made in England and Wales (Sf Athan). Engines now AMG but previously mainly built in a corner of Ford Cologne plant (V12s last few now I think). Some 4 doors were made in Austria a while back initially.

Lotus in Norfolk.

MG is just a brand for Chinese cars with heavy subsidies.

TVR on hold - did see a new one a few years back at St Saturnin. Ownership changed a long while ago.

Think Jaguar are scaling back UK production for Jaguar at least - EVs are making that more tricky.

So McLaren are pretty much made in England.

On my view it’s jobs and factories that make the cars from England rather than ultimate ownership.

Were the McLaren Can-Am cars made in Rye in Sussex? (Elva) - seems a curious connection as Weslake (Gurney connections) were they too is a small seaside town. Jota are in Sussex in countryside in middle of nowhere too.

Not sure any of this actually really relates to the OP’s question.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by RL17

PIF (Saudi state investment firm - pretty sure an Aramco connection to them)

Aramco is the state, dad ran there aviation side for years, it's all the kingdom's things in the end