BAR-Box-Banned

[Marbot]

BAR's new up-to-the-minute,all-singing-and-dancing,award winning gearbox as been banned apparently for being too good! read at www.f1racing.net How many wasted millions is that!

[neilap]

F1 bans technology. This is a sad day. There is too much politics in this sport. In CART they left for the same reasons. The rules were too fikkle and the rule makers too undecisive.

[Snrub]

In CART they left because they were jerked around. They were told litterly days before an event that they had to change their engine/pop off valves because Toyota complained that what Ford and Honda were doing violated the rules. In reality it made little/no difference and the problem was that Toyota wasn't as committed. When it came to defining a new engine spec, Honda and Ford's preference was ignored in favor of Toyota's.

I didn't realize that there was no drive interruption in BAR's gear box. I can see why that should be banned.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Can't they just fiddle with the electronics to create the 200-300 millisecond gap?

[Alex Hodgkinson]

who are "they?"

[manwell]

Why not allow a gearbox that had no interuption of power between gear changes.
This is the type of technology that could be filtered down to road cars, but now it getting banned.
Its just stupid banning all this technology to i guess try and reduce costs, but then they dont reduce testing (which would save a whole lot more money) because Ferrari doesnt want to.

[Raglanparade]

Its probably being banned because Ferrari havent developed the technology yet.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Alex Hodgkinson

who are "they?"

'They' as in BAR.

[Gt_R]

Once again..i see cheap shots taken at Ferrari with no facts whatsoever. I do believe the TWG does consist of more than Ferrari, and that Ferrari alone has no power over this issue. But well who cares..it must be Ferrari..LOL

Personally, i think it's unfortunate that a clever system such as this is banned. Teams should be encouraged and awarded to make technical leaps.

Remember before the re-launch of Traction Control, Ferrari had a new gear system which significantly reduces the lapse in between gear changes...and what we hear are calls for it to be banned/Ferrari cheating...blah blah.. DUUUHHh!

BAR's system sounds promising, and in any case, BAR seems to be eagerly developing new technology. Looks good for the future.

[MikeBz]

Could it be that they were working with this lothttp://www.zeroshift.com?

Mike

[1200Datto27]

Reading the Racetech article, it is not just BAR that use it, with Williams, McLaren and Ferrari all having used the technology at some time, with varying degrees of success.

[N I Tram]

Originally Posted by manwell

Why not allow a gearbox that had no interuption of power between gear changes.
This is the type of technology that could be filtered down to road cars, but now it getting banned.
Its just stupid banning all this technology to i guess try and reduce costs, but then they dont reduce testing (which would save a whole lot more money) because Ferrari doesnt want to.

People don't pay over £100 to see a day of technology demonstration - they pay to see a RACE, ideally involving as much driver input as possible. If technology like thsi is allowed, the quality of racing deteriorates even further. Your argument is completely misguided anyway - Ferrari are keen to reduce testing, just on different (beneficial to them....) terms, and basic testing is much cheaper than developing and building something like this

[RWC]

The Tech working group probably want a tiny gap for some obscure measuring reason i'm guessing.Or maybe they are forward looking,seeing where it might lead so cutting off potential problems with related rule infractions before they blew out of proportion.

Very interesting link Mike
I had instantly assumed it was a dual clutch idea they had

....i'm still trying to work out precisely how that zero shift works!

[MikeBz]

If you figure it out let me know!

Mike

[BSchneiderFan]

How do these things get so far along and with so much money spent before they're declared to be against the rules?

Mind you, I've always disliked the banning of technology unless (like active suspension, for example) it's something that everyone would eventually have to have at enormous cost. And, as Alex Zanardi will tell you, active suspension can be a wee bit dangerous.

[RWC]

What's going on-i can't find a way to delete a post with the new software

[RWC]

OK-i'm starting to get it now.
Basically he has just replaced the gear dogs/synchro clutches with an electronically controlled part/parts.Some of the 'magic' of it is in the specific design of those parts which obviously makes the assembly small and strong
It is similar to the instant change boxes used in drag cars (as they explain on the site) but where in the drag boxes only work on upchanges ,the zero shift can work on downchanges too
The drag box has simple mechanical overide clutch on each gear so that as a higher gear is sellected,the preceding gear simply spins harmlessly

The zero shift controls the transition from one gear to the next electronically.It's shifting the gears when it sees the teeth line up in a manner of speaking (allthough not that extreme)

Overall a neat solution if it proves durable and cost effective
I think we can forget about their claims that it may be in every car made soon..that depends allmost entirely on manufacturing costs

[1200Datto27]

It's done using rollers and cams, and is a lot easier to understand than explain.

As it's after midnight here, I won't try and do so tonight, but I'll dig out my copy of Racetech and try and paraphrase 6 odd pages down to 1 or 2 paragraphs tomorrow

[KevinS]

To me this sounds a bit like the system used on the 2-speed of R/C gas powered model racing cars (onroad, scale 1/8 and 1/10).

In such a gearbox the 1st gear is mounted on a one-way bearing. The 2nd gear has a clutch built in that automaticly engages at a given (adjustable) RPM. In 1st gear the 2nd gear spins harmlesly. When the 2nd gear clutch engages and the 2nd gear takes over the drive, the 1st gear will spin harmlesly due to the one-way bearing. There is no interuption of drive, but there is some loss of power since all gears are driven continiously. 3-speed gearboxes have been made, but this tends too get too big for RC cars.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

People don't pay over £100 to see a day of technology demonstration - they pay to see a RACE, ideally involving as much driver input as possible. If technology like thsi is allowed, the quality of racing deteriorates even further. Your argument is completely misguided anyway - Ferrari are keen to reduce testing, just on different (beneficial to them....) terms, and basic testing is much cheaper than developing and building something like this

What Tosh!!!..."FORMULA ONE" IS Technology! Otherwise we might as well have identical cars like Palmer Audi! ...and looked what exciting racing that wasn't!

[Rennen]

I seem to have the habit of killing threads off!...Well I can kill this one off...because it isn't true!...Geoff Willis said he doesn't know were this rumour came from!

[neilap]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

People don't pay over £100 to see a day of technology demonstration - they pay to see a RACE, ideally involving as much driver input as possible. If technology like thsi is allowed, the quality of racing deteriorates even further. Your argument is completely misguided anyway - Ferrari are keen to reduce testing, just on different (beneficial to them....) terms, and basic testing is much cheaper than developing and building something like this

Even though F1 is racing first and foremost, its also a demonstration of technology. Openwheel racing will never be as action packed as touring cars or motorbikes without "someone losing an eye". So the close action just wont happen. I want the technology. These drivers have already proven themselves in the lesser series. They dont have anything left to prove as far as skill. In F1, the best car wins. We are all fooling ourselves if we believe otherwise. MS is no god, he has the best car. I watch F1 to see a demonstration of tech at work. When I want to see close racing there are many other series out there. Yes, I would like to see F1 as close as possible but in reality the closest racing will usually be between teammates who are not "allowed" to race each other.

Mr. Honda said that without racing there is no Honda. Well without technology there is no F1.

[manwell]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

People don't pay over £100 to see a day of technology demonstration - they pay to see a RACE, ideally involving as much driver input as possible. If technology like thsi is allowed, the quality of racing deteriorates even further. Your argument is completely misguided anyway - Ferrari are keen to reduce testing, just on different (beneficial to them....) terms, and basic testing is much cheaper than developing and building something like this

Its already been developed and tested..... then banned.
So it isnt really saving any money as the money has been spent by BAR.
Yes the other teams have to catch up.... but thats what F1 is about.

And i hardly think my argument is misguided. 8 of the 9 F1 teams agreed to a schedule of limited testing. Ferrari didnt. They want their own testing that really only benifits them.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by neilap

Even though F1 is racing first and foremost, its also a demonstration of technology. Openwheel racing will never be as action packed as touring cars or motorbikes without "someone losing an eye". So the close action just wont happen. I want the technology. These drivers have already proven themselves in the lesser series. They dont have anything left to prove as far as skill. In F1, the best car wins. We are all fooling ourselves if we believe otherwise. MS is no god, he has the best car. I watch F1 to see a demonstration of tech at work. When I want to see close racing there are many other series out there. Yes, I would like to see F1 as close as possible but in reality the closest racing will usually be between teammates who are not "allowed" to race each other.

I don't think ive ever seen a post which I disagree with more.

I think the complete opposite. I think F1 should be about the best drivers fighting on track in the best cars.

I hate the technology, after all who cares if Ferrari's slip diff is 0.1 more efficient than McLaren's?

People are quick to forget that F1 wasn't always stale as it is now.
F1 used to be about passion, taking risks, dangerous.
I look back on the F1 we had about say pre 1997 and think it was excellent.

Thats not to say there hasn't been good races post 97, but for me at least, F1, or at least part of F1 died after 1997.

[Raglanparade]

Funny that before 1997 the cars were more various.

V8's, V10's, V12's,

High Nose, Low Nose.....

How we all have Low Nose V10's...

I think variation is the key.

Open up the engine rules to allow V8's, V10's, V12's, and even V or H16's