Weber and Williams in war of words

[Dr. Austin]

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[Maxmil]

There is just no telling where all of this is going to end. I very much doubt that Ralf will complete the full term of his contract with Williams.

[KC]

When you look at the Williams track record, it is impressive. They continue to peform at or near the top even though they manage to get rid of every premier driver they get. Why would Ralf Schumacher be any different? If either he or JPM wins the title next year, they will most likely be gone because Williams will not pay for a WDC in their car. That is their modus operandi up to now and it has done them well so I doubt they will change.

The words between Webber and Williams GP is nothing more than an agent protecting the interest of his protege. We see it all the time in other sports, so why not in F1? JPM has made a huge splash and outshone Ralf a little at the end of the season. JPM is very good at this, he did the same to Jimmy Vasser in CART. The guy is good and the more confidence he gets the better he performs. He waves off the hype but enjoys it nonetheless. RS must fight back on the track so that the team will remain behind him as well. F1 teams being the fickle and political animals they are will destroy a driver to make another look good. We have all seen this. One driver gets defacto #1 status and the #2 gets weaker engines, lesser development pieces, and undermined by the team principals in the press. This is nothing new. RS got this treatment over Zanardi, now he must face the same from JPM. It is gutcheck time for RS.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by KC
It is gutcheck time for RS.

Absolutely! I'm not the greatest of F1 fans these days, but this should be one of the most interesting aspects of the season next year. Will Ralf shine or will he crack? (My money's on the latter!).

[enemy-ace]

Originally posted by KC
If either he or JPM wins the title next year, they will most likely be gone because Williams will not pay for a WDC in their car. That is their modus operandi up to now and it has done them well so I doubt they will change.

I'm not sure I neccesarily agree with that. I think in Williams case it is more the type of WDC they have in their seat. From what I understand they wanted Villeneuve to stay, because he was the type of hard-nosed racer that they like. Similiar to Alan Jones and possibly JPM. I do however think that this is definitly gut-check time for Ralf, but I wouldn't count him out just yet. He may just surprise some people yet! I think JPM is the better driver but to underestimate Ralf's resolve could be a big mistake.

[BBKing]

Originally posted by KC
We have all seen this. One driver gets defacto #1 status and the #2 gets weaker engines, lesser development pieces, and undermined by the team principals in the press. This is nothing new. RS got this treatment over Zanardi, now he must face the same from JPM. It is gutcheck time for RS.

I Agree with almost all you said except the part I quoted. That only happened when one of the drivers was clearly outperforming the other that Williams have shown certain favoritism towards one driver, like in Zanardi vs Little bro.

When the driver has been able to get the team around him and fight the "defacto" #1 driver Williams has been fully behind them. Villeneuve over Hill, Button and Montoya over Lil bro are recent examples of how Head and Williams have conducted themselves when they had drivers that could take the fight between each other.

[KC]

When a team comes out and says they do not have a #1 driver, and then excludes one of the drivers from developmental pieces as Zanardi was done, that destroys the team atmosphere and creates an adversarial atmosphere. This happened to Zanardi on more than one occasion. Certainly he did not do well and he as much owns up to this, however, if one guy has a new wing on his car and the other guy doesn't even know about it until he pitches a wall-eyed fit, whose fault is that? Where is the team? The objective of the team is to provide their drivers with the best advantage they can offer to defeat their opponents. In F1 they support one driver over the teammate to support their own internal decision that one is better than the other. It goes on time and time again. McLaren I think has been guilty of supporting MH over DC in the past all the while stating that there is no #1. When one driver has a single engine failure over a season why does the other have 8 engine failures? That is not coincidence, that is supporting one over the other. I think that it went the other way last year and DC was supported over MH. Does anyone think that Barrichello gets the same equipe as Michael does? Absolutely no way, it is done by their respective contracts. Irvine proved this when MS was hurt, he became an instant challenger at every race until MS came back, then it was back to also ran as usual.

I think this mentality in F1 is the single most detrimental side of the sport. How many great champions were relegated to footnotes in history because an engineer or team principal torpedoed his career in the name of proving a point? Probably as many as those who have proved to be also rans. These guys are all great racers and someone must be the best. That takes a great driver in a great car with a great engine and a great team to support him. But it seems pretty hollow to be called the best when a teammate is not allowed or even encouraged to compete in equal equipment.

[Dr. Austin]

The other side of the coin is that you can steal points from your teammate and lose to a third party like happened in 1973 to Emmo and Ronnie. Or the famous Nelson/Nigel row of 1987 (?) when Prost pipped them to the title.

If you pick a clear #1, you can put all your resourses behind one guy and let the #2 guy serve as backup. But the #2 has to be able to pick up the baton and run if the #1 fails. Irvine really stepped up his game when UBS got hurt. If the team leader has mechanical trouble, the #2 guy has to be there to steal points from #1's rivals.

In chumpcars this year, Max Papis took Kenny Brack out of two races while fighting with him, once for the lead in a race they were dominating. Kenny lost the championship by less points that he lost in his accidents with Max, so yet another danger of letting your guys race each other.

Each team has it's own way of doing it and it just depends how things shake out if it is good or not. In a close championship, it is a shakey strategy. In a blowout season like 1988, the Mclarens were regularly lapping the entire field, so let them bang heads and entertain the spectators.

[SILVERS95]

I think that Frank is going to regret extending Ralfs contract , and is going to lose his team quite a few million dollars when he takes Button back on in 2003, Although Button has had a lousy year in 2001 , he is still highly regarded by the team and Berger..

in some ways Williams cant lose as they will have 2 quality drivers which ever way thay turn...but the Button factor wont go away , and i cant see Williams letting Montoya go , as he is surly the man to take the crown from Micheal !

[Raven]

Originally posted by Dr. Austin
In chumpcars this year, Max Papis took Kenny Brack out of two races while fighting with him, once for the lead in a race they were dominating. Kenny lost the championship by less points that he lost in his accidents with Max, so yet another danger of letting your guys race each other.

I agree with your post but this is a bad example. Michigan was just as much Brack's fault as it was Papis'. The points thing is also kinda hard to believe, granted Brack could've won Michigan minus the accident, but Mid-Ohio he wouldn't have done any better than 6th or 7th. Brack lost the championship by 36 points... 20 + 0? = 2nd place.

[Dr. Austin]

Raven,

Yes the points example in chumpcars was a bad example. I just lost interest in that whole scene after Alex got hurt and i really didn't know the final tally or the math of the whole thing.

But letting your guys race means they are going to get into each other once in awhile. Who can EVER forget prost and Senna?

[Mr V]

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT RALFS NOT AS GOOD AS MICHAEL.....JPM IS (IN EQUAL EQUIPMENT) JENSON AND JPM BOTH GOT THE BETTER OF RALF!! RALF'S CONTRACT ONLY GOT RENEWED BECAUSE OF HIS PERFORMANCE IN '99 AND THEN HE TAILED OFF ABIT!! HIS BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THAT BOTH SIR FRANK AND PATRICK HEAD ARE RACERS. AND THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN PRIMA DONNA'S WHO ASK FOR No1 STATUS!!! ALL THEY WANT IS RACERS (I.E ALAN JONES/AYRTON SENNA/NIGEL MANSELL CHARACTERS)

BOTH JENSON AND JPM ARE RACERS WHO CAN GET THE SAME OR BETTER JOB DONE FOR THE SAME OR LESS MONEY THAN RALF!! BET JPM WOULD HAVE GOT PAST MICHAEL IN CANADA IF HE WAS IN THE SAME POSITION.ON THE TRACK!!


JPM AND JENSON FOR WILLIAMS 03...WHAT A PAIRING!!!

[Mr V]

doesn't the fact that rubens is employed as no 2 to michael take away abit of the glory of michaels successes.......i won't deny that michael is better than rubens but his successes maybe aren't as compairable as sennas/prosts/mansells/..dare i say it damons???

thats why you have to let team mates race!!

[Mr V]

just out of interest......why do u guys think that CART is full of CHUMPS??????

[SILVERS95]

Mr V......i agree with you for sure....the fact that Micheal keeps his team mates as number 2's , which means sometimes have to plan there races around his to give Micheal a better result makes his achievments not so special.....i know Mansell kept Patrese as a No 2 back in 1992 but he proved himself against people like Piquet in prevous years ....I would love for Micheal to race for Williams with Montoya as a team mate , then we would see how good he is without all the politics behind him backing him up....Williams like to employ 2 racers and they need to be able to race each other with out someone coming on the radio telling one driver to let the other one past...Thats why i think that Frank and Patrick have got it right !

[Mr V]

sir frank and patrick head aren't stupid...........ralf's contract and wage must be performance related (in comparison to the team mate???)

[KC]

The problem is not who is the best, its who will the team support. There is not "I" in team. Why in the hell would any self respecting driver ever sign a contract to support a driver who may prove to be less of a racer? A great racer must be able to beat EVERYONE he comes against. If he requires his closest rival, the guy supposedly in the same equipment, to be subservient then he is a paper champion in my opinion. This is not just a shot at MS, I fire it at any driver who already has his teammate beaten by contract instead of by driving. F1 has been inhabited by as many politicians as race car drivers for many years. If I were a driver capable of being the champ I would expect my teammate to push me like no one else on the track or I would expect him to be replaced. That is truly what makes a champion, not forcing the team to support a driver at the expense of everything and everyone else. If that is the case, then just have a single car team.

I would love to see how good M Schumacher is if he was forced to compete with a driver like Villeneuve or Montoya in true and equal equipment. I think he is good enough to still be the champ, but we will never know because HE does not think he is good enough to beat Barrichello or Irvine in an equal car.

The instances of Papis crashing out Brack is a sign that Papis should have been replaced last year at Rahal. He could not withstand the pressure that Brack created by being consistently faster. Papis should have been pushing Brack instead of being lapped.

[Gt_R]

"I would love to see how good M Schumacher is if he was forced to compete with a driver like Villeneuve or Montoya in true and equal equipment."

Given Barrichello's characteristics, you would be for sure if Ferrari gave superior equipment to Michael alone, the world would know about it.This has been argued many times upside down. Both drivers in Ferrari are given the same equipment..and i guess Rubens knows this when he openly admitted it. Not wanting to drag all history up, so let's just look at the 2 years Rubens spend in Ferrari..the only significant time two drivers were given different equipment is Japan 2001, where Michael is doing development work. Rubens had basically the same equipment as Michael.

I think all the top teams have the capabilities to provide two cars essentially the same to both their drivers. And i think they try their best to (excluding some unknown developement work where one-off prototypes are developed). Other notable mid-field teams example are Benetton (clearly biased) and Minardi (who did not have the ability to).

Villeneuve was not offered a job at Maranello. Fair enough...but he did not dare to be there in the first place. He had came out talking about how he think he can beat Michael in the same equipment in the past and all the bulls... but
point one - if he think he is that good, why don't he knock on Jean Todt's door? If he can seriously blow Michael away in the races, and content for WDC...does he seriously think Ferrari would still work around Michael?
point two - He cannot even flatly beat Oliver Panis in BAR...and what is his chances of beating an even better driver?

As much as Michael do not wish to have another top driver working alongside him as team mate, the fact is that neither do Jacques and Montoya look forward to having Michael as a team mate. Not because of Michael's un-sportsmanship approach...but because they fear they may be beaten and have their careers ruined. They can talk and talk..but deep inside, they know such pairing would not materialise.

[enemy-ace]

Originally posted by Gt_R
[Bpoint two - He cannot even flatly beat Oliver Panis in BAR...and what is his chances of beating an even better driver[/B]

Gt_R I invite you take a good look at Panis' career, especially prior to Canada 1997 when he broke his legs. I think you will see that he is a driver of exceptional ability. Breakng his legs was a major hiccup in his career, but it is to JV's credit that he was willing to take on such a strong team-mate something that Schumacher has never done.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Gt_R
the fact is that neither do Jacques and Montoya look forward to having Michael as a team mate. Not because of Michael's un-sportsmanship approach...but because they fear they may be beaten and have their careers ruined.

Montoya with a Ferrari can get more points than MS !... actually he gave him a lesson on a "Williams" a couple of times, this year (and is his first year, do not forget that "fact" !)

[BBKing]

Originally posted by enemy-ace

Gt_R I invite you take a good look at Panis' career, especially prior to Canada 1997 when he broke his legs. I think you will see that he is a driver of exceptional ability. Breakng his legs was a major hiccup in his career, but it is to JV's credit that he was willing to take on such a strong team-mate something that Schumacher has never done.

Plus Villeneuve took on Damon Hill (World Champion) and HHF (somebody who regularly beat Schumacher when they were team mates and was considered better than Schumacher himself) and beat them both.

Fact is that you would be crazy to believe that you are going to be given the same treatment as Schumacher in spite of having signed agreement that you will. Problem with Barrichello is he actually believed that story. Evidence points to the fact that Barrichello performed well when he was given the Schumacher treatment: Germany 2000, Monza 2001 and Indy 2001. We all know Barrichello is 3rd class driver, even Irvine is better since he beat them when they were team mates at Jordan.

If one have to give the benefit of the doubt to Schumacher for his appalling performances in Monza and Indy because of sept 11 then why not to Villeneuve for what happened at Australia? Plus a guy like Villeneuve was totally frustrated when he realized the BAR 2001 was a piece of ****. So the Villeneuve on a crappy BAR is not as good and sharp as the Villeneuve on good car.

[SILVERS95]

What i find most disturbing about M schumacher's tatics....is back in 1995 when Herbert started to match Schumi's times in practice and qualified exstremly close to him....Schumi had herbert banned from seeing any of his telementry , in the de breifs or in the garage , yet...Schumi was allowed full access to all Herberts telemetry . Johnny had been quicker in certain sectors , which then allowed Schumi to match Herberts settings or style , but not vice versa....which then made Herbert look a very poor driver against the world champion....theres no doubt in my mind that Micheal is a exeptional driver....but this is not the way to be classed as a true champion...go out and race and beat everyone , not by contracts that prevent your team mate at having a equal chance .like Lehto , Herbert , Irvine or Barrichello . If you really are the best driver in the world ..you shouldnt be frightened to let your team mates have a equal chance.

[Mr V]

silvers95....couldn't agree with you more!!! if schu goes onto be the greatest of all time then maybe it won't be a totally genuine thing.

[KC]

It hardly matters if any of MS's teammates have the same equipe, they are not allowed to pass him on the track or even contest with him for position unless he deems it acceptable. The times that he has been beaten by his teammate are few and far between, but they have always been instances where something was dammaged on his car or it has failed him. But the times when he secured an advantage because his teammate was asked to hold up a rival is innumerable. This guy is one of the best to ever turn a wheel in F1 and he does not need to keep his teammates subservient to be the champion, but I think he is insecure enough to believe he needs that contractual crutch to get the job done. If he owned the team I could understand it. That is the difference between him a racer like Montoya who does not give a rat's ass what his teammate is doing because he already knows he can beat him, he believes it in his heart and won't allow himself to believe anything else.

[Speed]

Originally posted by KC
That is the difference between him a racer like Montoya who does not give a rat's ass what his teammate is doing because he already knows he can beat him, he believes it in his heart and won't allow himself to believe anything else.

That's why I support this guy !

Go Juan Go !!!