Concrete wall V armco fencing

[grange54]

Would concrete wall have reduced the damage on both Reynonds and Pye's cars today. It looked if the BottleO cars front wheel caught the ridging of the armco and climbed up the railing, possible would have glanced off concrete. With Pye's car it was more head on contact however it still looked as if the nose was caught as result of the armco bending. Hoping there is a clear for and against discussion.

[Armco Bender]

I like armco bending....

[bluespur]

armco will absorb energy - concrete sure does not

Pyes accident would have been a lot worst without both armco and the tyres behind it - concrete normally in a place where there is no movement provided

no contest

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by bluespur

armco will absorb energy - concrete sure does not

Pyes accident would have been a lot worst without both armco and the tyres behind it - concrete normally in a place where there is no movement provided

no contest

What he said.

[Juarez Jed]

I would prefer concrete with lots of tyres bundled in front, but the Armco did it's job in this case.

I am thinking about spectator safety here as well however.

[gts300]

Originally Posted by bluespur

armco will absorb energy - concrete sure does not

Pyes accident would have been a lot worst without both armco and the tyres behind it - concrete normally in a place where there is no movement provided

no contest

The 'tyres behind it' were the only barrier there up until just before last years event (don't hold me to that it may have been the event before which was only about 5 months earlier).

I don't want to think of the consequences of such an impact with the tyre wall only.

[GTRMagic]

The commentators had said they could not recall a car hitting that exact piece of fencing, at that angle... with 20+ years of going to Tasmania.. its an interesting aside..

Mr Pye's car was defective according to the team, a component failed.. easy to happen once, twice, several times...

A gravel trap in front of the wall may have helped slow the car down, but it kinda dug in anyway, to an almost vertical position.. and back again... that would hurt bigtime!

The Crash

[PVDA]

If a car has zero brakes then gravel traps do not work.

The car needs to be either going sideways or the wheels locked so they dig in to slow the car down otherwise it simply rolls along on top of the gravel.

Interesting that some tracks can still have armco or earth filled tyre walls while others were forced to go concrete years ago.

[GTRMagic]

What fence structure could you use to arrest this...

[Sultan]

If that was a concrete barrier at that speed, regardless of cage structure & HANS device, there's every possibility it could very well have been a fatality..

It was one of those freak things that happened at a part of the track where that wall doesn't normally cop a hit..

He's very lucky to have just walked away with a sprained wrist...

[Average Punter]

Haven't seen a slo-mo but it appears the car was down on its suspension travel just as it hit the fence. Maybe that's why it bucked so high in the air after impact?

Bet there are a large number of fans glad there wasn't the slightest of rises just before the armco that would have launched the car over the barrier.....

I was in the same spot at Symmons in 2011 when Murph lost a wheel. Counted my lucky stars that day too. It so easily could have gone into the crowd.

Makes me realise a catch fence along the pit straight at Bathurst maybe isn't such a bad idea after all.......

[Average Punter]

deleted

[Antrodemus]

Originally Posted by Average Punter

Haven't seen a slo-mo but it appears the car was down on its suspension travel just as it hit the fence. Maybe that's why it bucked so high in the air after impact?

The rear got one last bounce off the gravel before impact, and went in nose down, bum up as a result. The deepest indentations on the armco are right at the bottom. Hitting the armco at that speed and that strange angle then launched the rear of the car into the air.

[Senna05]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The commentators had said they could not recall a car hitting that exact piece of fencing, at that angle... with 20+ years of going to Tasmania.. its an interesting aside..

Mr Pye's car was defective according to the team, a component failed.. easy to happen once, twice, several times...

A gravel trap in front of the wall may have helped slow the car down, but it kinda dug in anyway, to an almost vertical position.. and back again... that would hurt bigtime!

The Crash

If you look at the car a moment before it hits the wall, it's actually launched upwards, meaning there was vertical momentum before the nose hit. This is most likely what caused the car to lift so aggressively (Mind you, It's been 12 years since I studied physics...)

Plenty of interesting discussion. Clearly flat concrete is better for side on impact or brushing against, but the armco is better for front on impact. I can remember an incident with Heikki Kovaleinen in a McLaren some years ago, where the car actually slid under the tyres, and it was pretty dangerous. And think back to Paul Radisich's incident at Bathurst - the earth filled tyres did their job but it still stung.

Despite being expensive, at corners like that one, is it worth looking at motorcycle racing style foam blocks?

Of course, remember, motor racing is dangerous!

[peckstar]

interesting discusion. can we add COTF to the equation.

the cars seem to collaps in a different way than in the past

[Woolley]

Having attended literally hundreds of race car accidents over the years the correct answer to the question is 'it depends'.

Each type of accident is best served by a particularly type of barrier and system for slowing the cars before accident. The best solution is to try to have the type of accident which suits what you've got...

If you're going to have a glancing side accident, look for concrete. Head on? Tyre wall and gravel. High angle of attack needs Armco. Motorcycle foam blocks are designed to soak up low kinetic energy impacts without injuring the rider and aren't really suitable for cars. Up here we have a lot of Recticel barriers which are similar, but again, they're best for head on accidents.

The circuit designers can only do their best for the type of accident they think is most likely at a particular point, and then review it after each impact.

[PVDA]

If you watch a slomo the reason the rear went up was the nose dipped at the last split second and the rear hit a bump and was lifting so when the front stopped the rear kept going upwards.

On a lighter note the guy in the crowd in the hoodie in the background looks like he's absconding after sticking up a 7-11

[twinwebbers]

Originally Posted by PVDA

On a lighter note the guy in the crowd in the hoodie in the background looks like he's absconding after sticking up a 7-11

I couldn't work out if he was the only smart one or the others had fallen a sleep. He's doing an Olympic sprint and everyone else is just sitting watching.

[redesp]

Originally Posted by twinwebbers

I couldn't work out if he was the only smart one or the others had fallen a sleep. He's doing an Olympic sprint and everyone else is just sitting watching.

Had a good laugh at that bloke too.

[Samwhk]

Haha, yeah we slo mo'd just to watch that guy multiple times, I love the way he tried to look cool and casual once he realised he was safe. Good reaction time tho!

[Woolley]

Having now watched the video, I'd say that did it's job fairly well. Most importantly, the car was contained within the circuit which is the principal job of any fencing. It deformed and soaked up energy and it remained in serviceable condition for any subsequent impact.

[smokin'joe]

whilst hoping for a speedy recovery for him, did his car not have turn in issues 3-4 times prior during the weekend at the same spot he initially left the track??

[PVDA]

The fact the driver and team kept going with a car with a mechanical issue hasn't really been discussed on this one yet.

Perhaps if they'd stopped they'd still have a car to send over to UnZed.

[Langers]

Originally Posted by PVDA

The fact the driver and team kept going with a car with a mechanical issue hasn't really been discussed on this one yet.

Perhaps if they'd stopped they'd still have a car to send over to UnZed.

Yes, and for all the praise of CotF safety and the HANS device etc, frankly 20 years ago he would have come into the pits when the brakes started feeling a bit dodgy. Drivers and spectators seem to forget just how dangerous any given category is until a fatality reminds them.

[TWRv12]

Wasn't the run off way too short consider the corner approach speed? Shouldn't run off be longer with four layer tire barrier?

The inside area of the corner should have been a lot smoother. Wouldn't the gravel trap be less effective because it was so undulating?

Wasn't it back in the mid 90's when all the circuit safety upgrades happened, Magny Cours replaced alot of the concrete walls with armco.