MSVR Brands Hatch 16th & 17th July

[Stoowert]

I can't believe no one has started this thread, so I will!

A big thanks to everyone at Brands last weekend. The meeting from hell! Just about everything that could happen, did!

Posts 2, 3, 4a and 4 had a busy time, not to mention 7 & 8!

Well done everyone! I hope Dave Scott hasn't had to buy a new filing cabinet to file all the reports!

[White flag man]

Wonder if anyone got reported for having 4 wheels ON the circuit for 3 consecutive laps.
First time I've done incident for over a year and the magnet was at full power.
I've even got a blister on the palm of my hand from doing so much...........sweeping!
As Stuart said well done to all, and the rescue/medical teams, track maintenance and recovery.
Hope you have a quieter weekend this weekend, but that won't be difficult!
The Mini Challenge!! The challenge was to see if they finish a race. It took 4 attempts and 3 rescues. Obviously taking over from the Clio Cup.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

I can't believe no one has started this thread, so I will!

A big thanks to everyone at Brands last weekend. The meeting from hell! Just about everything that could happen, did!

Posts 2, 3, 4a and 4 had a busy time, not to mention 7 & 8!

Well done everyone! I hope Dave Scott hasn't had to buy a new filing cabinet to file all the reports!

Amen to that and yes to the new filing cabinet! Plus I've never seen that much oil and that much "dancing on ice" going on, it was lethal!

Some great marshalling, including a very good example of why it's important to follow good practice (keep facing traffic, keeping stranded vehicles between you and the traffic when hooking).

Well done everyone, it was very challenging to say the least for all sorts of reasons including the weather

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by White flag man

The Mini Challenge!! The challenge was to see if they finish a race. It took 4 attempts and 3 rescues. Obviously taking over from the Clio Cup.

Post 6 also compared the Minis to the Clio Cup!

I only did Sunday but big thanks to Bernard, Darren, Lynn and Sabrina.

Also very well done to both Lynn and Sabrina for their excellent flagging.

[Alfaholic]

(From a spectator)

It was good to hear that action was taken against the driver of Radical No. 22 after his misdemeanours on Saturday - I feared the worst, but realised the target vehicle had panels in the same blue & orange colours as the marshal's overalls.

Well done to all for clearing so many incidents and mess up in the worst conditions I've seen this year to allow so many races to go ahead. Were the MINIs having a short oval banger style demolition derby?

[Thundersports]

How is the driver of the Radical who ignored the waved yellows at Paddock? I was stood at the bottom of Paddock when it happend and it really was a hefty shunt my first thoughts were for the Marshals.....

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

How is the driver of the Radical who ignored the waved yellows at Paddock? I was stood at the bottom of Paddock when it happend and it really was a hefty shunt my first thoughts were for the Marshals.....

He was ok, presumably a but battered and bruised on monday but ok. He was very very lucky.

[Apple]

How about somebody who knows explain exactly what happened and what actions were taken against who so that we can see and feel that justice was done.
It to me would be better than the innuendo and rumour thats going on
And then we could have more confidence in the powers that be which from what I heard happened
Mick

[Bodysnatcher]

I was'nt there.

Here's background for those that don't understand what innuendo & rumour Apple is refering to.

Bare facts from what I've been told by those close to it - car ends up in Paddock Hill gravel trap & requires live snatch. As car is being snatched a second car comes off at speed and impacts the first car whilst the marshal is about to hook up the strop that he has already positioned on the roll bar. Marshal saw it coming just in time and got away. Second car's impact is serious enough for driver to require rescue unit to attend.

From what I've heard the incident was sufficiently serious for the stewards to refer it to the MSA. No doubt somebody can confirm or deny that.


From a personal standpoint, I would like to add that after many (including drivers) praising marshals at the Ring 24hr and Pau for complex interventions under yellow flag cover only, it may be time for a serious deterrent being applied at a British event where the yellow(s) have been disregarded.

thats
Double yellows at 3
Single yellow at 2
Stationary yellow at 25

[johngee]

I wasn't there so this is just a general comment. We (as in Clerks and Stewards) are very actively discouraged and/or precluded from discussing any form of judicial action in any public forum. The process is legal or quasi legal and is subject to various checks, balances and appeal processes along the way.
I believe that, on balance, a transparent and open system of 'justice' is best but easier said than done ...... and define 'transparent and open' ...... and then think about the News of the World etc. etc

[Bodysnatcher]

As ever, John G clarifies what I meant by the incident possibly being referred to the MSA.

There you go Apple, it may not be what we want (after the heat of the moment) , but we won't hear about the outcome until the process is completed.

As it has gone to the MSA, that may be some time away.

[andrewc]

I was a spectatating at the time. I was accredited media, but had put my camera away to dry off.

Car A rounded Paddock Hill, ran out of grip and ended up in the gravel. Realised he would be stuck, he immediately got out and ran to safety.

Marshal and tractor come to recover the car. Double waved yellow at top of hill. Car B rounds corner at pretty much full racing speed and collides with car A.

Marshal dived clear, he must have been 2 feet behind the car when he noticed car B coming.

Fortunately car A hadn't been snatched. It it was 2 feet in the air, it could be a very different story for the driver of car B.

[Stoowert]

Right, from what I was told by someone wearing a MSVR shirt, the said driver had already fallen foul of the authorities for trangressions earlier in the day. He had his racing licence taken away and he will be summoned to appear at the National MSA court. He faces a fine and possible suspension for up to a year.
I think, in the interviening time, have a realy good think about his involvement in this sport. At least he should think of less powerful cars (NOT minis!)

I saw the incident from Post 4 and quite honestly I didn't believe what I was seeing! As someone has said above, it's a very good example of what we say every day in our briefing about keeping the car between you and the traffic. At the very least, you get that split-second more time to react, as it's in your field of vision. Well done Stuart, a great dive! You got a 5.9 from us! If you'd put a tucked pike in, you'd've got a 6!

Can I also add a big thanks to the various Clerks etc for being so friendly and calming during the various stoppages. It would've been easy for them to have started throwing their weight around, trying to clear the mess up as they were no doubt under great time time constraints. You wont see me write THAT very often, but credit where it's due.

[Apple]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

As ever, John G clarifies what I meant by the incident possibly being referred to the MSA.

There you go Apple, it may not be what we want (after the heat of the moment) , but we won't hear about the outcome until the process is completed.

As it has gone to the MSA, that may be some time away.

I wasn't having a dig at anyone really it just seemed better that the facts as could be told were told.
thats been done now and I think thats all we need to know till the due process has taken place
It seems the officials have done all they can
I was there on the Sunday and had heard second or third hand so wanted to hear more accurate account thats all
Mick

[Dan Friel]

There's an article in Motorsport News today about it and a few pics (nice dive / scramble!). A few highlights:

1. Driver accepts the blame. Fair enough

BUT

2. Driver also claims that all other leaders didn't slow for the yellows. So can only assume that the meeting stewards and perhaps Radical are taking action on this as well?

3. The driver also states that a safety car should have been deployed. That simply shows how the drivers are now interpreting a yellow and how the impact is totally diluted. Needs to be reviewed before a marshal doesn't have the opportunity to make a getaway.

[skeee]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

There's an article in Motorsport News today about it and a few pics (nice dive / scramble!)

I was watching from post seven, and the dive was awesome!!!! Perhaps it was the hat that stopped him getting a six!
It was also a very large bang.

A classic example of how to do a live snatch safely.

Only one person out in the gravel,
always with one eye on the oncoming traffic and
keeping the car and rescue vehicle between the traffic and you.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

1. Driver accepts the blame. Fair enough

BUT

2. Driver also claims that all other leaders didn't slow for the yellows. So can only assume that the meeting stewards and perhaps Radical are taking action on this as well?

3. The driver also states that a safety car should have been deployed. That simply shows how the drivers are now interpreting a yellow and how the impact is totally diluted. Needs to be reviewed before a marshal doesn't have the opportunity to make a getaway.

I'd suggest that this is the kind of detail that we're best off avoiding discussion of at the moment...

[dave vass]

It really saddens me to think that all the work done by the Intervention Marshals UK to encourage marshals to go and work on a live track could be undone by one piece of reckless driving. The whole point of waved yellows is to warn drivers of danger; and that they should then be in full control of their vehicle at reduced speed.
If you think about it the only reason we use safety cars is because drivers can't be trusted to obey yellow flags!

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I'd suggest that this is the kind of detail that we're best off avoiding discussion of at the moment...

Really, why?? What's the problem in commenting on some issues raised in a magazine article? There is no comment on the incident itself.. suggest you read the posting again.

Or is 10/10ths now just about whether people have received tickets, or what time is sign on?

Hoping to hear news about what steps are being taken about the other drivers who didn't slow down. That decision will have already been made (so not a problem discussing..)??

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

Really, why?? What's the problem in commenting on some issues raised in a magazine article? There is no comment on the incident itself.. suggest you read the posting again.

Or is 10/10ths now just about whether people have received tickets, or what time is sign on?

Hoping to hear news about what steps are being taken about the other drivers who didn't slow down. That decision will have already been made (so not a problem discussing..)??

Read message 9,10,11 & 13 in this thread. The matter is currently in the hands of the MSA, and as many of the people involved are likely to be people here, I think not discussing it is entirely appropriate. Discussion of an article on the article's own website is a different matter.

Once the decision of the MSA has been made, then you will be able to read all about it via the MSA website/magazine

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Once the decision of the MSA has been made, then you will be able to read all about it via the MSA website/magazine

...and then discuss it on here if you wish. Until then, normal rules apply about marshals not discussing incidents. That's not a 10ths rule, that's what you agree to when you marshal.

[Bodysnatcher]

and today we did a rerun if you missed it last week. Well, nearly. This time it was a spin before T-boning the car being snatched.

What do we have to do to make drivers have their cars under control after driving past a

stationary yellow,

a waved yellow
and then
double waved yellows?

I hates Japanese cars.

[Stoowert]

Oh Mr Bodysnatcher...Try the Decaff!

One or two points here:-
1. I thought that very few, if any, of the cars were slowing down.
2. It was the second time most had driven past the incident.
3. I agrre with Dave Vass, it's a great leap backwards in, not only IVM's efforts to improve marshalling in general.

This makes me wonder if we need a differant type of warning for drivers when something is going on off track? As most drivers had seen the incident and realised that the track was clear, it seems they thought that they wouldn't need to back off the next time. I wonder sometimes if we arn't our own worst enemy by Double-waved-yellowing every off-track live snatch activity? The trackday competitors and the end of the meeting were backing off to the extent some all but stopped going past Post 3's flags! This is a good thing, but they are not experienced drivers who are looking to steal a march on their fellow competitors by fair means or foul.
I'm NOT saying that any marshal trackside shouldn't be covered by a warning fla (or flags) of some kind. I don't know, maybe a waved orange flag....Hmm not sure about that either! I suppose arming all marshals with tazer guns is a bit too drastic!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Stoowert

I wonder sometimes if we arn't our own worst enemy by Double-waved-yellowing every off-track live snatch activity?

Agree a bit on that point.
It seems all we (race control course & marshals) do is keep escalating the flags in order to get the desired response.

After the incident, over the remaining course of the weekend, we had a call over the yellow flag radios from a post asking for a double yellow at a preceeding post because they had marshals on track pushing a mechanical failure off track. It was actioned by RC.

Double yellows preceeding by double yellows at the behest of race control.

Full course yellows.

Full course yellow & SC boards without the safety car on track.

Drivers have to respond to the flags at the first time of asking. My big fear is for a major incident on track requiring DWY but in an area where the drivers assume DWY is for a live snatch. And keep the foot down.

[Apple]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

Agree a bit on that point.
It seems all we (race control course & marshals) do is keep escalating the flags in order to get the desired response.

Lets leave the flags as they are and
maybe the answer is to escalate the penalties
So that the drivers get the message