Williams looking for new engine supplier?

[Sodemo]

I read over on this site:

http://www.f1central.net/news/articl...ines/view.html

Williams have contacted Cosworth and Toyota in reference to supplying engines...

I have to say, its a shame if BMW do split with Williams, I know they have a contract until 2009, but as everyone knows, contracts mean nothing in F1.

Not sure if this is a nothing story or not...?

[Rossi # 46]

I think it is a nothing story.

[Super Tourer]

I thnik this is a kind of '2+2 =5' type story.

Credit Suisse are rumoured to want to sell their stake in Sauber, whilst BMW are equally rumoured to have decided that they need to buy a stake in a team (presumably to exercise more control as opposed to 'influence').

Quite why the feeling is that SFW would not sell a stake to BMW I'm not sure, both he and PH are in the twilight of their F1 years and the timing to sell up looks right to me.

Whilst Williams do have an contract until 2009, I think it's worth mentioning that BMW deliberated a long time before renewing it, and the terms are (allegedly) less favourable financially and more onerous in terms of performance clauses.

SFW has been in this boat before when Honda left the team and Williams faced a year with a customer Judd engine, so I guess casting your eyes around 'just in case' is not a bad plan and probably a bit of gamesmanship between BMW and Williams.

There is certainly something strange in the air between SFW and BMW, as highlighted by SFW 'annoucing' BMW's deal to supply Sauber, which I can't imagine pleased either of the two parties who deny that anything is signed, and in any event was an announcement to be made by BMW and Sauber, not Williams.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

It's just Frank covering his bases I'd imagine, with all the rumours about BMW being unhappy - and I'm sure Frank knows the full truth on the matter - he'd be stupid not to be lining up potential suppliers in case of a fall out with BMW.

[GTRMagic]

What's stopping SFW from buying Sauber himself

[f1_carzy]

Why wud he want to do that?

[Adam43]

Why would he want to do that?

I think GTRMagic was just having a little throw away comment. Although, of course, it does highlight the difference between the teams. Sauber is quite a big team now with its big base and smart windtunnel. However Williams still have more resources. So if BMW are considering swapping then it is quite a dramatic switch.

Although I go along with Super Tourer's 2+2=5.

[N I Tram]

Covering his bases probably describes it quite well. If Sauber have as good 2006 once they do get BMW power, or BMW decide to buy into the team and have a more secure footing in F1, they may gradually and subtly reduce the support they give Williams, in whcih case Frank may be advised to consider another option.

[GTRMagic]

I was being facetious.. but think that all the reasons put up for buying Sauber, including this new you-beaut wind tunnel, would all go away if someone else bought the team out from under Mr Sauber....

They say the grass is always greener... till you actually go there and find its brown grass with green paint

In the old days, Mr Dennis would have swooped on the BMW engine right about now... but cant now the other mob owns an interest in his squad

[Sodemo]

Yes, McLaren and BMW have collaborated before, on the "McLaren F1" of course.

[Logrence]

I think...Williams will sell up to BMW.

Frank and Patrick have been fighting a lot recently, BMW have been making life difficult, they haven't got the money they used to (sponsorship is performance-related) and it's just not as much fun for the pair of them.

Sauber is a threat.

[Snrub]

I think the manufacturers tend to overlook how difficult it is to create a successful F1 team. BMW should stick to what they're good at, which is building the engines, they're not likely to better Williams' overall performance. Judging from the Melbourne performances, Cosworth is plenty capable of producing a quality engine with competitive power. The engine they produced was at a bargin price compared to what the big manufacturers spend on engine development. If Williams were able to pay substantially more than Red Bull is currently, it seems like they'd have an engine within the ranges of the big manufacturers.

[f1_carzy]

Toyota must be a good example to all the manufacturers who r aspiring to have their own teams (which aren't many); I agree with Snrub; BMW must stick with what they r good at - making engines.

[Adam43]

R (it is a capital letter), the old F1 mod? He was very good at moderating, but making engines? Although he did aspire to having his own F1 team. Check him out here.

[BootsOntheSide]

I think there's a distinction between owning a share of an existing team (which Honda have had in BAR for some time for example) and running it outright. Snrub is absolutely right that car manufacturers rarely do a good job of the management side of things, and often need to spend more than a privateer with a genuine love of racing to actually achieve the same results - look at Jaguar and Toyota in particular. A lot of people had overlooked this, and I wonder if BMW have?

BMW shouldn't be concerned about Frank looking elsewhere - as it stands, customer BMW engines are likely to be his most competitive option, not the most expensive, and without any initial teething troubles, so I'm sure he'd only consider a change if BMW cosy up to Sauber too much.

[Mr V]

Saubers new wind tunnel was always going to be as much of a selling point to a new buyer as it was going to be used for what it was designed for.

SFW said only last week when the BMW/Sauber deal was announced, that Williams would remain the works team.

I honestly can't see BMW buying a stake/whole team, especially at the moment with the way the BE/FIA/GPWC thing is going on.

[Super Tourer]

The political situation is significant, of the GPWC main players BMW is the only one that doesn't own a team, or a stake in one.

[billiaml]

I suppose we just have to wait & see what, if any, announcements are made re: BMW & Sauber. Since RBR will be going to Honda power, if Williams looses BMW, both parties would be looking for new partners; imho, Cosworth wouldn't be a bad choice for Williams (yes, I'm biased. so what?) And Williams wouldn't be a bad team for Cosworth to supply engines to.

[fog_shadow]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I honestly can't see BMW buying a stake/whole team, especially at the moment with the way the BE/FIA/GPWC thing is going on.

i would think that buying a stake in another team would give BMW a bit more leeway if or when it comes down to bargaining or voting. it could even afford them an opputunity to have a toe hold in both camps should it come down to that.



shadow

[Gt_R]

I'd expect this to be just BMW pressurizing Patrick and Williams to sell.

BMW made no secrets of their intention to have a greater say in an F1 team, and play a bigger role, than a mere engine supplier. William's resistance to it is strange... considering that Head and him are not going to be in the hot seat any much longer.

What may happen though is that Williams 2005 is not as appealing as it is in the past. It has long since when Williams really enjoyed a season in glory, and this may give BMW more leverage to bargain a better deal. With Sauber, BMW have one more card to deal.

Williams is losing bargaining power, and everybody knows that there are virtually no more engine manufacturers who could give 100% works support. Courting Toyota and Cosworth may be alternatives, but in both cases, would be customer engines and doesn't have the resources of BMW.

Williams may well choose to sell his team than to see it go the way Jordan had. BMW has the capabilities to bring it to greater height, and Williams does need a boost now for the sake of the team.

[RT]

We also have to see things from the BMW pespective ...... How many times has Williams design, pit stop performance, and ....ahemmmm....management and handling of human resources matched the excellence of the BMW engine.

Williams is a great story of past success and excellence, as well astriumph over adversity (in the case of SWF). It is also more recently a case of poor design performance, mismanagement of human potential (Newey, G. Willis, Ralf and Juan, to name a few we know about) and so-so pitstop performance and racing strategy. It's hard to avoid the feeling that Williams is in irreversible decline, specially if we consider the age of the principals.

IMHO BMW should have moved on to another team a while back. The new engine rules will give them the opportumity to start fresh with another team and the Sauber team seems like a pretty good match.

RT

[Kicking-back]

Some of Williams greatest days came with Cosworth power.

[Super Tourer]

Indeed - Keke v the turbo's in 1982 !

[RT]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Some of Williams greatest days came with Cosworth power.

That would be a good option. The Cosworth engine is doing quite well and would add to the viability of Cosworth an an F1 institution.

Williams would be freeer to run it's show as a new leadership emerges and matures.