The Greatest Post War driver

[john ruston]

This lot can understand that he [Jim Clark] was the best driver since the war but is overshadowed with the PR (I would call it B/S)of other lesser men.

[john ruston]

People fail to appreciate JC and how superior he was to his fellow drivers and as for birds.The Firestone girl he was with at Spa in 67 was one of the best looking I have seen at any Motor Race meeting.

[terence]

Funny how JC was just as good on the loose stuff as well,obviously learnt from all the practice on the farm.

[John Turner]

John, there are many who consider that Jim Clark was the greatest post war driver, but I'm sure that supporters of Fangio, Moss and Stewart might want to challenge that assertion. I'll not mention any of the more recent drivers, as some of my contemporary fellow 'reactionaries' might suffer apoplexy! I think that Clark probably was the most naturally gifted driver of all time, but not necessarily the best overall.

[john ruston]

Here is the answer JT
Moss would drive for money and did not take his chance to become World Champion and a car breaker.His reputation has grown with his age.
Stewart is underrated because of his unusual PR style but not as good as JC and I think he would agree with that.That saves the unwashed having their say.68 German GP drive one of the great ones.
You may have a point with Fangio but he was driving when there was little to beat but was clever enough to always pick the best car
The recently retired German is the only other who is fit for consideration and that includes Senna and Prost.
I sat with DSJ on the outside of Burneville in practice for 67 GP and had a lecture on precisely how good JC was and you could see it .He was a much better judge of drivers than any of us and he was absolutely correct!
Why not on both Forums as the Chef and the Bird thing had more hits in a week than any one other thing this year.
I assume this could start off a heated discussion but opinions are like .......,everyone has one.

[delta]

I like a lot of fans was at Silverstone i guess 1970 and watched well i was mesmorised as Ronnie went through Woodcote flat in the Lotus. There was just one othere driver taking the corner flat and that was JYS.I also think a lot of us clubbies have to thank him for his work on the saftey aspect of motor sport.For that alone i am thankfull and thats why i regard him as my hero.Good to have JR back to his old self , thanks for the compliment John rivets and all.

[John Turner]

Without getting into who was best, I strongly challenge the assertion that Moss was a car breaker, and there is plenty of evidence to confirm my view. In World Championship terms, the vagaries of a point scoring system nailed him in '58 when he won 4 races to Hawthorn's 1 and thereafter preferred the challenge of privately owned cars to take on the works cars; a real racer if ever there was one. He certainly understood a lot more about what a car was doing than Clark who had Chapman to interpret for him. I think we missed a few great years of spectacular racing between these two titans of the track because of the Moss crash at Goodwood.

[john ruston]

Moss raced the Walker Cars rather than works cars purly for financial reasons so rules himself out from being an absolute superstar and his time messing with the Colletti gearbox did for his 1959 season.
Remember points win prizes.
JC did come under Chapman shadow but he also did NASCAR,Indy etc and was a sucess.When the AJ's of the world start talking in reverential terms about a driver you know he's something special.He made front page od SI and Time ,now thats clever.Moss could be the perfect Brit,the great underdog ,obviously hogwash but thats what the chaps like.Remake of the Few talking on the Hun!

[John Turner]

All I will say is that, on this occasion, I totally disagree with my good friend JR's assessment of Moss. His endurance sportscar race record completely refutes the suggestion that he was a car breaker, not to mention Argentina '58, Monaco and Germany '61 inn GPs, and his reputation was established absolutely solidly during his career, not since!

[John Turner]

Split off from Gary Critcher's Jim Clark programme thread.

This always generates interesting, if not heated discussion. JR and I have discussed Clark and Moss. Anyone want to champion the virtues of Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Senna or Schumacher, or go back a bit earlier to Ascari or Farina (remember it's Post War!). Interesting that for much of that period there has usually been a handover from one benchmark driver to another- Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, but then a gap before we get Prost, Senna, Schumacher. Of course Rindt was considered pretty much on par with Stewart but died in 1970, as did Stewart's 'nominated' successor, Cevert a few years later, and Peterson, and Villeneuve later still. In fact we lost so many great drivers during this gap, so the benchmark role was never entirely filled until Prost came along, although you could make a good case for Niki Lauda and maybe Nelson Piquet.

Anyway, we haven't had this discussion for a while, so anyone up for it?

[chunterer]

Ho ho, it's always fascinating to read opinions and thoughts on who was the greatest and who was the quickest and so forth.

John I think your last post sums things up very neatly. Whilst I was not around (for some time!) in the immediate post war years, I believe from what I have read, watched and listened to that other than Fangio, in the period between the 50's and early 70's there were two drivers way ahead of their contemporaries: Moss and Clark.

You quite rightly say that when Moss was injured and then retired, we were robbed of what would have become one of the rivalries in the history of F1. Moss was already aware of Jim's 'coming' but would have made it very difficult for him.

In many respects I think the same, in later years, about the disappointment that we weren't able to see Villeneuve v Peterson in comparable cars, or maybe Villeneuve v Senna (their time would've surely been the mid-late 80's?) for a good few years and then in recent times, obviously Senna v Schuey throughout the 90's.

I reckon there's just as many match ups that could have told us a great deal, that didn't happen for various reasons, as there are that did happen.

A lot of this always boils down to personal favouritsim rather than outright objectivity. For example, I've always favoured the styles of aggressive drivers over polished, smooth ones, even if ultimately the latter has arguably resulted in more champions?

[john ruston]

Favorite or Best that's the question.

JC in Lotus 23 at Ring in 1000 k's.Not many top that drive.

I throw my considerable weight behind JC camp on this

Only drivers that should be considered are Ascari,Fangio,Moss,Clark,Stewart,Prost ,Senna and Schumacher

The rest of those named are exciting but not the cream but could be put forward as favoritities such as Villeneuve after Dijon but even that was for second and third place.

Could be interesting discussion

[John Turner]

I agree, John; favourites are different from 'best' but even then it's just an opinion. Good fun, just the same though, because it enables us to mention all the heroes which most really were as far as I'm concerned.

[chunterer]

What about Moss's Mille Miglia effort or Juan Manuel's stirring Nurby drive in '57 though, could they top Clark's efforts?

It was interesting you mentioned the late DSJ's 'list'. There was only ever 5 drivers on it IIRC?

Fangio, Moss, Clark, Villeneuve, Senna is that right?

Now 2 of those never won a title, and you could argue only managed a handful of F1 wins between them, but on several occassions during their careers produced drives that made their rivals at the time (including multiple champions) look average by comparison.

As you say these topics are always interesting!!

[John Turner]

IIRC, Moss won 16 GPs from 66 races, neither just a handfull, nor a bad 'strike' rate. GV just didn't live long enough to accumulate wins.

[chunterer]

Indeed Moss did, but I guess in comparison to many that came after him it could be considered a relatively small number (i'll get my coat.....chuckle)

I mean Damon Hill won, what was it, 21 races??

Actually let's leave damn stats!!!

[John Turner]

There weren't so many races in a season then Chunty, and I think that you'll find Moss's number of wins is still reasonably high up the list and his 'strike' rate, possibly higher still. So define the word 'many' in this context!

[john ruston]

Strike rate is not a bad guide but Fangio wins that one by a fair distance .Any driver with more than thirty starts and 25% strike rate is in the superstar list.Damon Hill did how many races,well over 100?

[delta]

As i said earlier JYS.99 GP 27 wins 3 World Championships.Still my hero.

[chunterer]

John and John, boith of you are spot on I reckon.

Any driver who has a high win ratio compared to starts has to be considered right in the top drawer.

However.....

I wouldn't rate Damon in my selection of superstars (quite possibly well up in my second string list though!) but he did win 20 of his 21 in the space of 4 seasons..... I remember there was some stat about his strike rate pre '97 and it was mega!! I know he had the right cars (and really should've won even more events with them) but it kind of puts things in perspective if we only consider the stats.

There's guys like GV who had perhaps only 1 season of title winning equipment in 6 seasons, but is considered a legend, whereas Hill had 4 seasons of title winning equipment, won 1 title and won races in all of them?

It's the old 'what would x have done in that car' thing rising up again!!

I remember a thread a few years back about drivers that should've or could've won a title but didn't. I don't want to revisit that specifically but that thought process is always there, particularly when you think about Bernie's new most wins wins the title system and how that would've affected the outcome of a great many championships over the years!

For example; Mansell would've been a triple titlist, how many more would Senna have nabbed and would this have altered our perception of great drivers?

[rbs]

One driver who rarely gets mentioned in these debates is Jacky Ickx, He managed to win in Saloons, F2, F1, sports cars, his results at le Mans need no explanation, and the won the Paris Dakar Rally. With that sort of career he must be classed as "fairly good" if not great.

[Splendid Cat]

Originally Posted by rbs

One driver who rarely gets mentioned in these debates is Jacky Ickx, He managed to win in Saloons, F2, F1, sports cars, his results at le Mans need no explanation, and the won the Paris Dakar Rally. With that sort of career he must be classed as "fairly good" if not great.

Agree, and the timespan of his success too is highly relevant

[delta]

My Dad worked for John Wyer back in the sixties and seventies he always said Ickx was a fantastic driver and was allways pleasant to work with.

[John Turner]

Certainly of the greatest all rounders, Ickx would be a leading contender. Whilst I'd acknowledge Moss as possibly not the greatest F1 driver, I'm absolutely clear in my view that he was the greatest all round postwar driver, followed closely by Mario Andretti and then Jacky Ickx.

The thread title doesn't restrict it to F1, which enables us to extend the discussion, so a good call, rbs.

[john ruston]

Moss wins the All Rounder Challenge.Thats a given but JC gives him a run for his money.Pity Chapman could not design big Sports Cars that worked