GARRA Daytona Prototypes

[V8thunderfan]

Will there ever be a class at Le Mans for the Grand Am prototypes? Or do they fit into a current class at the moment. We don't see much of them in Europe they are beautifuly ugly beasts
Just like to know thats all .. couldn't find any info on it elsewhere.

[deggis]

No. (And thank god for that).

[Stefvh]

I wonder how many laps they could do at Le Mans, in 24 hours.

[V8thunderfan]

I don’t think they would have such a problem finishing after all they are built with cost control in mind so I expect the production based motor to be pretty well bullet proofed. I think they would have a problem with pace after all they were developed because the organisers where worried by the speed of the WSC at Daytona. Doubt they would be up to LMP1 speed down the mulsanne.
I reckon GT1 place maybe judging by the speed of them at Le Mans this weekend.
Just something I was thinking about while watching Le Mans thinking of what might be considered at the ACO meeting today.
Rightly or wrongly, I see GARRA as outsiders in the grand scheme of things and maybe with closed top prototypes now being the thing to have at Le Mans it might be a chance to get a bit of unity in world sports car racing.
Just wanted to see what you all think.. deggis clearly thinks it a bad idea =D

[Tom87]

RLM talked about this possibility on Saturday night - pacewise they reckoned that DP's would be slower than either LMP class and that the GrandAm GT's would be slower than either GT class...

[PorscheFanNo1]

What about a little tradeoff, the top 10 cars at the Daytona24 gets an invite for LeMans and the top 10 at LeMans gets an invite for the Daytona24?


On a more serious note, considering how much problems the DPs had at this years Daytona24 with only one car really running problemfree and so many cars breaking I'm not sure any of those 10 cars would finish at LeMans at all. Those DPs are quite fragile for being endurace cars, and also slow, with the many long straights at LeMans they would most likely be outpaced by the GT1 cars too.
And getting the Grand-Am GTs to LeMans would never works as its besicly GT3 cars.

[V8thunderfan]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

What about a little tradeoff, the top 10 cars at the Daytona24 gets an invite for LeMans and the top 10 at LeMans gets an invite for the Daytona24?

Daytona has fallen out of the big endurance events for me since they went it on their own. Would be great to see it restored to its former glory.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by V8thunderfan

Just wanted to see what you all think.. deggis clearly thinks it a bad idea =D

Not only me, but I think very big majority on this forum thinks ths same.

Originally Posted by V8thunderfan

Daytona has fallen out of the big endurance events for me since they went it on their own. Would be great to see it restored to its former glory.

That's completely up to GARRA...

...and then up to ACO & IMSA, regarding the airborne moments we've seen this year, think about the bumpy oval section...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by deggis

That's completely up to GARRA...

...as much as it is up to me to jump from a bridge.

If GARRA ever allowed LMPs to race at the 24hrs at Daytona it would be the end of the series. The series is built around Daytona and a big reason for teams to be in the DP-class is that they can race for overall wins at Daytona in it. Now if they were relegated to a secondary status at the series most important event, those who could afford it would buy an LMP and race it in ALMS, those who can't would have every right to be P.O'd by GARRA and race elsewhere as well.

What I would like to see is some kind of trade-off between GARRA and IMSA, that allowed ALMS to race at Daytona(ideally a "Daytona Finale" in late October/November) and Watkins Glen and GARRA at Mosport and Road Atlanta.

[broadrun96]

The engines wouldn't be a challenge to get to last the 24, it's more the other parts. The banking load on the CV joints at Daytona seems to be a destroyer. The cars would run fine, but think it would be the last class or in a fight with the GT2s, the top end just doesn't seem to be high enough to compete with LMPs ot GT1 on the Mulsanne.
As for the Daytone idea, I know it was a classic enduro but the track just doesnt do anything for me. The only reason I usually watch is race withdrawal by that point in the spring. Rovals just aren't too interesting but wouldn't mind seeing the ALMS cars at the long course at Watkins Glen

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

...as much as it is up to me to jump from a bridge.

Those three dots where there for a reason

[V8thunderfan]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

The engines wouldn't be a challenge to get to last the 24, it's more the other parts. The banking load on the CV joints at Daytona seems to be a destroyer. The cars would run fine, but think it would be the last class or in a fight with the GT2s, the top end just doesn't seem to be high enough to compete with LMPs ot GT1 on the Mulsanne.
As for the Daytone idea, I know it was a classic enduro but the track just doesnt do anything for me. The only reason I usually watch is race withdrawal by that point in the spring. Rovals just aren't too interesting but wouldn't mind seeing the ALMS cars at the long course at Watkins Glen

Yup agree with all that.

[V8thunderfan]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

...as much as it is up to me to jump from a bridge.

If GARRA ever allowed LMPs to race at the 24hrs at Daytona it would be the end of the series. The series is built around Daytona and a big reason for teams to be in the DP-class is that they can race for overall wins at Daytona in it. Now if they were relegated to a secondary status at the series most important event, those who could afford it would buy an LMP and race it in ALMS, those who can't would have every right to be P.O'd by GARRA and race elsewhere as well.

What I would like to see is some kind of trade-off between GARRA and IMSA, that allowed ALMS to race at Daytona(ideally a "Daytona Finale" in late October/November) and Watkins Glen and GARRA at Mosport and Road Atlanta.

Yeah I agree I don't think we will ever have LMP's at Daytona 24hours in its current setup. I don't think its right either to force LMP cars on to Grand Am, I wouldn't want that. They do what they do and and thats fine but as changes are coming to the way LMP's are bulit and powered here in Europe and maybe in the ALMS why not find a way to incorporate the DP's with future plans .. some how or other. For me sports car racing is all about verity the more the merrier.I am sure GARRA would love to race at some ALMS locations too.

[mattcat]

Pace wise they would probably be a little faster than the GT2 cars. Grand-Am did away with GT1 (I think it was still called GTS back then) because they were faster than the DP cars. They tried running them with smaller fuel cells so that they would have to pit so many times that they couldn't upstage the "premier class", but they finally just killed it off and created a GT3 class. As for their reliability, I remember being at the Rolex 24 when none of the DP cars could finish the race and it was won by Kevin Buckler in a GT2 Porsche...

[1969MGCGTdriver]

No thanks...Nascar taxi cabs lumbering around LeMans does nothing for me. I prefer technologically advanced cars not castrated, tube framed, spec racers. GARRA is about the drivers not the cars. For me, the cars come first and the drivers are secondary.

[broadrun96]

Remember there used to be a class at LM for NASCAR spec cars. Ok, so it was back when they actually were close to stock cars and I think only a few ever showed up.
As for the DPs, wish they were allowed to be opened up alot more but the focus of the class is cost minimization, which helps with having larger fields but doesn't do alot for competition. With any luck the new body work will make them more tolerable but I haven't had a chance yet this season after Daytona to catch a race. GT at least has a chance to be interesting with the tube frame cars meaning other makes could join but still leaves the feeling of how close to the actual cars are the racers?

[AU N EGL]

I would like to see the GA DPs allowed into the LMP2 class and vis versa.

Rember the last time team corvette ran in the Daytona 24 hour, the corvettes qualifed 1st overall ( yet the rules committee made the corvettes and other GT cars start behind the DPs) and finshed first over all. That was the last time team corvette raced at Daytona.

[Purist]

That was 2001, and they were racing against SRP-Is and SRP-IIs in the prototype ranks, not DPs.

[Danske]

I can't imagine the ACO enforcing Grand-Am DP regs in full, nor G-A sending over a scrutineering team to do so, which seems to me, were DPs to be legal, to result in a special Le Mans spec. The compromise would be to homologate and scrutinize the DP engines as if they were GT engines, ignoring the G-A rpm limits, thus producing Le Mans specific DP engines. The spec tire rule would also be ignored, possibly the steel brake restriction, and maybe even the spec rear wing.

Given the DPs with their spec tires, spec wing, steel brakes, and restricted engines are just a tick slower than the GT1 Corvettes on shared tracks, depending on the exact details of the Le Mans spec I don't have a problem imagining them to be quicker than GT1, but who would want to go through all the modifications?

[TheSuicideKing]

Another GARRA thread, another bashfest, another thread for the mods to ignore.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I would like to see the GA DPs allowed into the LMP2 class and vis versa.

That would be like letting Formula Atlantics run against IRL cars, it just wouldn't be competitive or fair.

I don't get the point of this thread really, why is it people who for the most part apparently don't like these cars, want them added to the series/genre that they do like? Is there a shortage of quality entries at LM?

Regarding the GT3/Grand AM GT level cars, you can bet at some point those will be the lower GT class. It seems quite cyclical, that a higher class gets phased out, and replaced with a lower class... that over time gets too quick and expensive, and is replaced again with another lower class...

Danske - I think if the DP's did the mod's such as brakes, tires to ALMS spec..., I would imagine they would be quicker than GT1's at many tracks, but slower at a track like LM, as they just don't have the aero. They are designed to suit the North American tracks, and with mods probably would beat the GT1's in North America. Not too different than in the past with the R&S MkIII's, great cars in North America, not so much in Europe.

[TheSuicideKing]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That would be like letting Formula Atlantics run against IRL cars, it just wouldn't be competitive or fair.

I don't get the point of this thread really, why is it people who for the most part apparently don't like these cars, want them added to the series/genre that they do like?

They know the DP formula works for competition. They're tired of seeing one or two makes bulldoze the field. They know inviting the DP formula will allow for close, competitive racing, they're just too ignorant to admit it.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by TheSuicideKing

They know the DP formula works for competition. They're tired of seeing one or two makes bulldoze the field. They know inviting the DP formula will allow for close, competitive racing, they're just too ignorant to admit it.

One or two makes dominate? I believe you have the same scenario in Grand-Am: Pontiac-Riley or Lexus-Riley...
The "DP formula" also includes bogus NASCAR-style full course cautions as well. The "DP formula" is designed to remove as many variables as possible and place the emphasis on the drivers.
Hey, I know lets put them out there in a bunch of identically prepared Pontiacs and let the best driver win. Wait a minute, didn't Grand-Am used to be called IROC?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TheSuicideKing

They know the DP formula works for competition. They're tired of seeing one or two makes bulldoze the field. They know inviting the DP formula will allow for close, competitive racing, they're just too ignorant to admit it.

Let's not get into the ridiculous or sublime arguments. If you want me to get out the stats from last year, the ALMS actually had closer overall finishes than Grand Am did. You don't get closer than LM just did, between two manufacturers, after 24 hours very often. Regarding your one or two makes crack... you mean like a field of Rileys?

These arguments are plain silly. Spec Diesel VW Golf series makes for close, competitive racing too. However, neither a spec VW Golf series, nor DP's are the type of cars that the vast majority of people who have been sportscar fans for very long like as premier cars. It is a simple reality that many people don't like the DP's, or Grand Am. This reality shows up on message boards, and the attendance of most of the events, excepting Daytona 24. Instead of an inferiority complex over this reality, it is time that some people simply realize and accept this.

We ACO/ALMS sportscar fans realize this isn't as popular as NASCAR or F1, but we don't get bent out of shape when that is suggested... well except this silly F1 thread here.

[TheSuicideKing]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

However, neither a spec VW Golf series, nor DP's are the type of cars that the vast majority of people who have been sportscar fans for very long like as premier cars. It is a simple reality that many people don't like the DP's, or Grand Am. This reality shows up on message boards, and the attendance of most of the events, excepting Daytona 24. Instead of an inferiority complex over this reality, it is time that some people simply realize and accept this.

Actually, you'll find you're wrong, if you ever attended a GARRA race. You'll find many GARRA fans don't even bother with message boards because they're insulted and shouted down on Pro-ACO boards like this one, and allow that type of behavior.

Check the ALMS official board and the GARRA official board. Which board has more thread bashing the other series and other series' cars? Then you'll see who has the real inferiority complex. Face it, ACO racing is dying in this country. Save for a few rich boys with a few bucks to waste in a year buying a Zytek or a 3 year old Courage, what does the ALMS have going for it? Shaw? Panhard? The BMW prototype? Oh yeah, next year; it'll be here next year. I've been hearing next year for the past 5 years. GARRA never promises but they deliver. Scott Atherton could take a major cue from Edmondson in that department.

Do not dare to be so ignorant and think you speak for "many" sportscar fans, Brett.