Track Position of a Car during the Race

[poojyum]

Hello all,

I would like to know what is the method the race organisers use to keep track of which position each car is on the track thru out the race?

I understand from an article elsewhere on this site that each team gets the precise position of its car on the track thru "telemetry". Do the race organisers use something like this?

Thanks,
Jagan.

[Sammie]

Hi,

A transponder is provided by TAGHeuer that is unique in the signal produced. Each car is fitted with a transponder.
The timing beacons around the track register the transponders and the positions for the organisers can be produced.

Although it is more complicated than this for when cars are being lapped (but that is software based), this is the principle behind it.

Hope this helps.

[poojyum]

hi sammie,

thanks for the info!

pooj

[poojyum]

hi sammie,

i have seen (for example in the telemetry section of bmw williams site), the continous position of the car on the track during the lap.

are the transponders capable of reporting that or is it just only when the car passes certain points on the track?

thanks,
pooj

[Sammie]

Hi Pooiyum,

To my knowledge the system provided by TAG is a separate system to the ones the teams use for telemetry.

The position of the car on the track that you see on the telemetry screens (behind the garage) is probably simulated, so that the engineers know where the car is on the track and can relate it to what the telemetry is telling them. I don't believe that they use GPS or other to locate their cars on track.

Hope this helps

[poojyum]

hi sammie,

what i am trying to do is to develop a realtime 3d visualisation of the race over the web!

for this purpose, i need the track (which is easy) and the position of all cars on the track(which may require talking to loads of people etc) continously thru out the race.

when i look at bmw william's site, in their telemetry section, they show ralfie's telemetry data and his position on the track thru out the lap. it may be simulated from the data, but i wonder if a seperate sensor is providing that X, Y (or something) on the track in realtime to the pits. is it hard to report where the car is on the track to the pits in realtime?

if its not hard, then my guess is, the race organisers should also be able to get that data. if they can get the data, maybe i too can (after loads of talking, convincing, standing upside down etc :-)

kindly clarify.
poojyum

[Chris Gamlin]

Well all i can say is best of luck!!!
Have you seriously thought about this, and what it would involve??
As far as I know, the FIA only have the data from the transponders available (the 3 sector times), and no constant monitoring system. This can be seen when somebody is overtaken, yet the positions you see on screen do not get updated until they cross the next sector.
As for teams data, I don't seriously think they are going to let a total stranger anywhere near a complete set of race telemetry data, as this kind of information is closely guarded. This would be especially true as you plan to merge the data with all the other teams data, so giving you a complete 100% accurate representation of all the cars performance over an entire race, which many teams would be very much against. ALso you have to consider that each team uses different computer systems, so the data they gather will be in a different format and may not actually be 100% comparable to another team's data.
Anyway, I would be fairly certain that the FIA would not allow you to carry out this plan even if it was possible, as in effect you would be broadcasting the race. TV companies pay millions for this privilege, so I can't see them letting you do it for less.

Chris

[poojyum]

hi,

thanks for pointing out the practical difficulties in implementing this.

technically, i think doing the visualisation is possible provided i get the track position of the cars thru out the race. from what you say, it seems its impossible.

maybe i should try talking to one of the TV companies themselves. anyway, thanks for the reply.

thanks,
poojyum

[Vandas]

Hey,

I know with the MoTeC we run in my car, after we get back to the pits and the data is downloaded, the computer drives a simulation of me going around the track, track positiona dn what have you. However seeing as I am only state level, with have to hook a lead to the dash to down load the information so we can't get real time info. Maybe the F1 teams have like a WAP, Mobitex, or InfraRed system which enables them to get real time info off the cars.

Don't know just guessing.

[Chris Gamlin]

No probs poojyum Just to give you an example of how tightly the FIA and Bernie control everything, about a year ago I was looking into doing an F1 based website. If I wanted to use any pictures of F1 cars / drivers etc at races, the only way I could legally obtain pictures for use on a personal website would be to buy them from FIA approved photographers. If the photo's were taken by non FIA approved photographers or grabbed off of a TV feed etc, then the FIA could technically sue me for breach of copyright, as could the driver/team in the picture involved!!

Vandas, you are right in that the F1 teams do have realtime uploading of telemetry data, so this information would technically be available. Even so, I think that practically this idea of poojyum's isnt going to be possible for many different reasons, not in F1 anyway where everything (broadcasting, merchandising etc etc) is so tightly controlled and secrets are so closely guarded.

Chris

[poojyum]

hi chris,

the stupid zealot that i am, i want to give this a shot. yes, i know FIA / teams wont let me any close to any of this. but, i want to try and get rejected :-)

so here's my plan:

i goto the tv company that has got the rights to telecast F1. in the uk, this is, ITV. now they have a website called http://www.itv-f1.com. my plan is to integrate this program as part of their site.

suppose ITV thinks its feasible they can at least start talking to the FIA / teams and explain to them that its just the position of the car we want, nothing else, i dont know.....what do u think? :-)

but first, how do i contact the tv crew that goes to the races? i mean, how do i contact the commentators for example : martin brundle, tony jardine or murray walker?

maybe this post is turning offtopic, but i can tell u what the possibilities are if realtime 3d visualisation becomes a reality.

1. u can track the position of all cars thru out the race in 3D in realtime.
2. u could follow / ride in a car
3. u could create cameras across the circuit and get the program to "cut" between the cameras as the cars pass
4. u could have a timeline at the bottom and watch the race from any point in the past (action replays)
5. the race would be on the server and u can see it at any time

6. your suggestions are welcome :-)

i would be glad if u can offer ur thoughts and i welcome discussion from other folks too.

thanks for ur time,
pooj

[Chris Gamlin]

poojyum

I agree it certainly sounds a tantalising prospect.
I think you'd be best off contacting the ITV production team rather than commentators etc, as they won't have any say in corporate decisions for things on the website etc. I think the only hope you have of achieving anything is to get an F1 broadcaster on your side, but to be honest, I wouldn't hold your breath. You may find that even if ITV like the idea, they will not allowed to do such a thing under the terms of their broadcasting deal with Bernie Ecclestone (who owns all the broadcasting rights to F1), as what a broadcaster can / can't do is very tightly controlled (ITV only get certain camera views, only get one on board camera view, and get no live broadcast rights for practices / warm-ups).
If you think about it, a website running a live graphical representation of the race would effectively be broadcasting the race to the entire globe, and could potentially reduce TV viewing figures in many countires, which I cannot see Bernie etc being too enthusiastic about. Because of this, I think the best you can possibly hope for is a post-race reconstruction of the race, available a day or so after the race completion. To do it live would also mean real time interrogation of every teams telemetry, processing it, then broadcasting it to the website. To be honest, I seriously doubt whether this technology is actually available to do this effectively, and if it is, it's going to be frighteningly expensive. Apart from all the hardware costs, imagine the cost of a team of people needed at each race to set up all the kit attached to each team's telemetry system, and yet more people setting up more kit to process the data and to send it to the website via an uplink (usually satellite).
Sorry if all these comments are quite negative, but I seriously don't see how an individual person can make this happen. I think the only way an idea like this could come to fruition would be if it had the backing of a major company willing to spend millions on the technology needed to make it all happen, and also have the backing of the FIA, Bernie, and all the teams, which I don't see happening.

Chris

[poojyum]

thanks again chris for an enlightening post

i will try but i fully understand what i am getting into, thanks to u.

pooj