Black and Yellow vs Pace Car - Discuss

[Stone-kicker]

So, black and yellow flags are dangerous.
I saw the Formula Renault on (the fabulous) Motors TV last night, they sent out the Pace Car and nearly had the Great Granddaddy of accidents. It was sitting on the Startline waiting for the leader and as the leader appeared, tried to out-drag him under the Bridge. He failed!

Leader pulls to right, 2nd place, goes left, everyone else locks up with the inevitable bumps and bangs - fortunatly, no one got hurt but that was luck, not good judgement on ANYONES part.

Black and yellows worked perfectly at Pembrey at the weekend though. I'm not suggesting either method is better than the other, but I don't see a) Why B+Y flags are perceived as more dangerous than Pace Car and b) why we can't have the option of using them for club racing next season.

I fear we will spend more unprotected time in gravel traps next season as well as more race stops.

[Piglet]

I think we've probably done this topic to death already haven't we?

I saw the TV coverage of the Formula Renault race and it didn't look like it happened as is should have done.

Having said that there are times when the safety car (I don't think we use pace car in this context in the UK do we?) works well, that there are times where B/Y works well. Done badly they both have the ability to cause problems, done well they potentially save a race from being red flagged.

[Novice]

The B&Y works well when the drivers obey them, but when they don't its dangerous. At a recent 750MC meeting the B&Y was put out but the leaders chose to ignore it. This resulted in the flag being out a lot longer than was necessary. When the green flag was put out a back marker was just in front of the leader so the back marker got the B&Y then almost immediately the green flag went out. Needless to sat the CoC was very busy after that race with about 12 drivers lined up in race control for their b***ocking and to have their bank balances further reduced.

[EvilPumpkin]

The point about the pace car to remember is that not every organising Club/racing class (choose as appropriate) can afford to supply one.

Even with the SC, you're still dependent on there being a driver that knows what they're doing - and competitors who understand the concept.

Take a look at my description of what happened last weekend in one of our races when the SC went out. http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=38939

[flying muppet]

Anyone know why the Safety Car was waiting, stationary, at the exit of a blind, flat out bend? Wouldn't 2/3 of the way up the straight have been more sensible?

I've got to agree with most of the above - many clubs won't be able to afford Safety Cars, which will result in either a) more red flags & shortened races, or b) marshals working in more dangerous positions, or c) cars being left where they shouldn't be.

[Tim Falce]

Novice. If you are talking about the race at Brands, I was midfield in that race and my race was spoilt as the leaders were lapping me before I had passed the green flag. Perhaps more education is needed.

[b1ackcr0w]

Having thought about this at some length I think I've got the definative answer to this.

Neither system is inherantly better than the other. As Piglet correctly states, done badly, both have potential dangers. Frankly, we shouldn't be over concerned with which one we use. What we should worry about is choosing a system, ditching the other and really learning the one remaining system so that we could do it in our sleep well. If we constantly dream up lots of differnent ways to take control of a circuit, should we be surprised that nobody quite understands what's going on?

Now look at it in that context, I suggest we make our plan, all follow the same plan, and execute the plan violently! (I vote ditch the B/Y & have a good go at making one standard plan of how to deploy a safety car)

[Piglet]

Originally posted by flying muppet
Anyone know why the Safety Car was waiting, stationary, at the exit of a blind, flat out bend? Wouldn't 2/3 of the way up the straight have been more sensible?

My take on this is:

The safety car was just after the pedestrian bridge and not (IMO) on the exit of the bend - I think the camera perspective was deceiving.

My guess is that it was deployed from somewhere around BRDC clubhouse (can't remember exactly what it is called - someone?) Normally it would have been deployed at a mid speed and the pack would have caught it....BUT in this instance the incident was at Copse so I'm guessing that it was imperative that the pack was caught and slowed on the pit straight rather than further on round the circuit as would be normal.

It didn't seem to work very well, but given the proximity of the incident to the start line I think it was always going to be tricky.

[Muppetrescue]

Having seen both systems in action ,both executed well and badly, my personal preference is safety car for the following reasons ( assuming correct implementation);

Take a rescue unit on scene at an incident

1) I have some level of control of the speed of the field passing the incident via radio to race control and or direct to the pace car if allowed eg 24hr 2CV race.

2) I can generate a gap if we have to cross the circuit or if we have to move a car back out onto the circuit by asking the safety car to slow down / bunch the field.

3) I can advise the car if the hazard has moved eg car has been picked up from lhs of the circuit by wrecker now travelling on the right.

4) I can prevent loss of racing laps by advising the car directly if we are underway and exactly when we will be clear and he can adjust his speed so as to allow us enough time to clear before turning off his lights without starting another lap.

This however is the Irish version where the unit crew are on the same channel as the car on a lot of occasions. Still been out there both ways , didn't like black and yellow, too scary but maybe I'm just too much of a control freak!!

Muppet Rescue
Its hard to soar with the eagles when you're working with turkeys!

[Novice]

Originally posted by falcemob
Novice. If you are talking about the race at Brands, I was midfield in that race and my race was spoilt as the leaders were lapping me before I had passed the green flag. Perhaps more education is needed.

Yes that was the race. The leaders just did not slow down and I think there was also a lot of overtaking. The CoC was indeed very busy after that race with some of the competitors only just getting out for another race that they were in 2 races later.

Do the drivers get a set of instructions prior to a meeting indicating safety car, B&Y flag etc..?

[Piglet]

Originally posted by Novice
Do the drivers get a set of instructions prior to a meeting indicating safety car, B&Y flag etc..?

Yes! They have the regulations that relate to the series/race that they race within, the reg's specify whether a safety car is available. Some reg's also specify whether B/Y is used, although strictly speaking this is unecessary as it is a MSA adopted flag - it's a bit like telling drivers that a chequered flag will be used!

They manage to read the technical ones to work out how not to fail scruitneering (mainly!) but don't always read the others!

[Woolley]

Just read your story, EP, and it's sounds ... exciting? IMO the important part of all that is not the repeated yellow infringements, etc, but the phrase "request to stop was denied". Why, for Heaven's sake? Red is the obvious answer - gets all the cars together in one place for an ollocking. Better still is the old Don Trueman method of giving the cars time to modify their behaviour before deciding, it really does need stopping, then oh dear, they've gone just far enough to not get a restart. Definitely concentrates the minds of the miscreants.

[EvilPumpkin]

I wasn't in the tower so I can't answer as to why the second session wasn't stopped.

The session in the morning that threatened the safety of my crew didn't (or certainly shouldn't) have needed a red flag, which is why no session stop was requested. It was a bog standard car in the kitty litter. All we needed was a bit of slow down from the drivers to allow us a safe gap to push the guy out. Which we didn't get.

But my reason for putting the link in was the behaviour of the SC - the issue of the cars being waved past it and then flying straight into the danger zone at full speed in an effort to make up places/time. Since our SC procedure is more or less the same as the UK, we were under full course yellows at the time.

[Woolley]

Sorry if I sounded critical - not meant that way, I've been in the same situation myself, and it can be very hairy. I fail to understand why SC fail to pick up the leader so often, but I've never tried it myself, and so wouldn't wish to criticize that either. I do think, though that if a red is requested it neesd a very good reason not to, especially if the marshals are continually put in danger. If nothing else it allows the adrenaline to subside. In your case, having suffered the same problem with the same cars in a previous session, there should have been no hesitation.

[EvilPumpkin]

Does the UK have any minimum requirements for SC drivers?

[Tim Falce]

Do the drivers get a set of instructions prior to a meeting indicating safety car, B&Y flag etc..?
There is normaly a bit about B&Y's in the final instructions, the trouble is some people do not read them. As a novice at every briefing we were constantly told about the B&Y's. It seems that the more experienced drivers mostly dont understand the flag.
I looked at my times for that race and under the flag I was still lapping at 61 secs and couldnt keep anywhere near the people in front. This also happened in my first ever race, and the first 3 drivers were disqaulified.

[Séamas M.]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
Does the UK have any minimum requirements for SC drivers?

Driver must hold a race license of at least the grade necessary to compete in the race.

Séamas M.

[Bob Pearson]

Going back to Piglet on Friday evening, The reason why the finals (in some cases) advise whethere the B/Y will be used is because some clubs and championships won't use it. Hence there can be a situation of drivers driving under B/Y rules one week and without the B/Y the following week.