Somwhere oval the rainbow . . .

[Nuvolari]

Amid the ongoing debate over oval versus road course racing (and in light of the USGP's use of a portion of the Indy oval), what about a circuit that incorporates both . . . a full road course AND complete oval?

Your thoughts, esteemed colleagues.

[jarama]

...like the old Monza, used for the last time in 1961?

[Nuvolari]

As a relative neophyte (I've been following F1 since 1990), I'm not familiar with many of the older circuits.

[R]

It would be interesting. Would make it an even bigger challenge of finding the right setup to the cars.

Old Monza was like that? I thought it was "just" an oval. Wish they hadn't changed it if jarama's correct, that would've been a unique track.

[Tristan]

Isn't there a stock car track in australia that already does that.... the name begins with a C........... somethingorother Thunderdome......... aaaaaaghhh!!!

[botsquad]

when the American Le Mans series comes to the Las Vegas Motor Speeday in October, they will be using just such a curcuit.

a 2.25 mile track that combines super speedway style high banking on the oval and a twisty road course inside the oval.

can't wait to see those audis run there.

[Jay]

They ran a few GPs until 1961 at Monza using this layout: without the chicanes. (photo from f1-live.com)

The combined track made the fastest circuit in the world at the time. Even faster than Indy!

Here is a link to pics of races held on the banking: http://www.monzanet.it/homepage/banking.html

If you are unfamiliar with it, I suggest you go rent the movie "Grand Prix".

[Marshal]

Interestingly, the original Monza tack without banking would probably now be lapped at an average of gettin on for 190mph (the '71 Italian Gp was won at 153mph avg on the road circuit) which would make thew road course only a similar speed to mile ovals in the states, so there might not be that much in the way of compromise in the way of set up.

[Valve Bounce]

Because of the configuration, the banked section of Indy was taken flat, and provided little challenge. I hope that the circuit will be alterred so that the section before the banked oval section will be much faster, so that it CANNOT be taken flat. That will then separate the men from the boys.

[botsquad]

tgf and his sidekick have both expressed their approval of those slow turns leading up to the oval.

so what do you think the chances are of a course change?

[Crash Test]

The Calder Thunderdome held a race or two in the late 80's with the combined oval/road course, one meeting held there was a round of the worlrd touring car championship. The two tracks were joined by a pair of hairpins. I wish they would go back there, but i guess safety could be a big factor.

IRL cars can take the turns at Indy flat, so unless F1 cars get a massive run up, or they are grossly unstable, they shouldnt have any problem negotiating the final turns. Did you notice how they weren't even using up all of the track like IRL cars??

[EERO]

For anyone curious, the Great racing film "Grand Prix", fimed during the 1966 season, has a very dramatic final scene at Monza. The course portrayed is the conbined oval/road course configuration, despite the fact that that layout was actually last used in '61. Watching those beautiful cars pounding themselves around the banking is awhole lotta fun. The movie is pretty easy to find, catch it if you haven't already seen it.

[Jay]

"I hope that the circuit will be alterred so that the section before the banked oval section will be much faster, so that it CANNOT be taken flat."

That is impossible, as even the Indycars take that corner flat out.

I think the cars enter the speedway at the right point. It is very safe, and there is little chance of having the type of big crashes they have during the Indycar races where driver's career's are ended.

They just need to make the infield course longer, and wider with fewer 1st gear corners so that there is more than one opportunity for passing.

[Valve Bounce]

Jay, if the Indy cars can take that corner flat out, I suppose they can take the entire oval flat out. Am I right on this point? If so, what the heck is the sense of oval racing there? It is like going on a straight of indefinite length, isn't it? Then problems only occur if something goes wrong with the car?
I must be wrong on my assumption here - it just doesn't make any sense!! Please explain.

[downforce]

My doubts the same as Valve , Jay??

[Crash Test]

Although with a good handling car you can keep it flat through the turns, a bad handling car can't. There is also the draft which is much much more effective on IRL/Champ cars. Also the difference in engines, and gear changes for fuel conservation/power.

It may be one big long straight...put the speeds do vary through the corners (some 20mph at times i believe) simply due to the corning forces. Anyways, they go faster than F1 cars ever will

[Jay]

downforce, Valve Bounce, when the Indycars are setup properly the entire circuit is taken 100% flat out. If they are not setup properly, well then it is risky.

In a qualifying session, the driver never lifts his foot (unless something goes wrong) for nearly three 2.5 mile laps.

The vast majority of crashes at Indy are becuase of mechanical failure or because there is 2 car contact in one of the turns or sometimes a car goes offline and into dirt and marbles that are on the outside of the track that cause understeer and carry the car into the wall.

This is the way that most superspeedways (Michigan, Fontana, etc) in the USA are.

What is the point of it?

Well they are very dangerous, have big crashes sometimes, and produce more passing in 500 miles than an entire F1 season. You be the judge. I can live without it.

[Valve Bounce]

The way I see it, a true test of any driver is where he can just about go flat, but not quite. Like Eau Rouge where only the best can claim they went through it flat, (well almost). That is the key to a fast lap, to overtaking oportunities, and ultimately to win. He who dares, wins. (Famous Irish Proverb). Quite frankly, I couldn't care if I never saw another crash in an F1 race.

[ozywoodwards]

This thread has reminded me of the highlights programme of this years Michigan 500 shown on channel 5. It had overtaking virtually every lap, but it got so frequent and looked so easy that it quickly became just as monotonous as this years Hungarian grnad prix, until the end when Montoya and someone else ran side by side up to the finish line.

My point is that too much passing is bad, and also that oval racing tends to be 190 laps of just circling before 10 great laps at the end, and I'd much prefer to watch a grand prix with 1 overtaking move anyday.

Sorry about changing the topic but it does kind of link in with the message by Jay.

[Jared]

Personally, I cannot believe what some of you are saying. Since when is passing a bad thing? Is Max Mosely posting here?

The Michigan CART races have been some of the best races I have ever seen.

Going a bit off-topic, and if I'm stating the obvious, I apoligize: I believe the reason that F1 drivers felt the Turn 1 of Indy was easy and rather boring was because they were still accelerating and they were running high downforce levels. If you have enough downforce, that oval turn would be easy.

The trick in oval racing is when you start taking the downforce off, to gain speed, you lose some of that confort around the corners high-downforce levels bring. That is why some oval accidents happen; they are trying to run as little downforce as they can, to gain speed.

[Blackjack]

Ozywoodwards said:

"My point is that too much passing is bad, and also that oval racing tends to be 190 laps of just circling before 10 great laps at the end, and I'd much prefer to watch a grand prix with 1 overtaking move anyday."

I say "A grand prix race goes around an inperfect circle for up to 79 laps with no passing at the end." At this point in time I rather watch a good oval race. At least you know the drivers are racing and not playing follow the leader.

[Jay]

No passing is quite boring, but so is too much passing.

While I will agree that some of the races at Michigan have been very exciting, they also get boring, as cars just whizz by each other without any effort. If there is a passing opportunity, there is a guaranteed pass and there is little daring involved.

At circuit such as Spa there are also overtaking opportunities, but to take advantage of them a driver must make a daring move, and even then there is no guarantee that it won't all end in tears. This is what I find exciting. It's a lot like the battle that Villeneuve and Frentzen had at the Indy circuit. They are a lot more nail biting than seeing Juan Montoya and Micheal Andretti swap places 10 times in 3 laps.