GTS for overall.....

Javi · 9 Oct 2003, 12:41 (Ref:745156)

Maybe a silly comment...
In 2000, and 2001 (even 2003), most of us critizised Grand-Am for the quality of the prototype entry at Daytona 24hrs. Fast but old prototypes were embarrased by (also fast) works GTS entries (a GT3 RS won his year..). I know the slower circuit layout at Daytona helped the slower GTS for their quest for overall victory, and that Le mans is such a different place but: For next year, no "works" prototype teams will appear. We´ll have a range of prototypes (except the R8´s, bet for them one more time) that are quite fast, but not that fast over 24 hrs, and we´ll have fast GTS cars (3:52 for a Ferrari 550...) with some very well prepared teams.. Does anyone even think of the possibility of a surprise result for a works GTS? I am not seriously talking about victory overall, but maybe a podium...
You comments please

almzkid · 9 Oct 2003, 12:44 (Ref:745160)

The Porsche that won Daytona was actually a GT entry an even lower production based class then GTS. It was also a privateer effort that further accentuated the fact that while DP's may be close in competition (like all spec series are) they are slow and ungainly at best.

As for a GTS podium....possible not probable.

**Aysedasi** · 9 Oct 2003, 12:54 (Ref:745170)

Quote:

Originally posted by Javi
Does anyone even think of the possibility of a surprise result for a works GTS?

No.

SALEEN S7R · 9 Oct 2003, 12:55 (Ref:745173)

I think in 2005 when the factory Maserati team enters LM (hopefully) we will have GTS lap times down to about 3:44. Im expecting the Ferrari 550s/575s next year to be lapping around 3:48s. The Ferrari 550 was doing 3:52's in 2002, in their first year. Now the cars are developed and the restrictors are back to 2002 size. So im thinking 3:48. Maybe even faster if cars like the Saleen S7R runs without penalites, and the Ferrari 575.

With the new tunnels under the LMP cars expect lap times to be slower. Maybe as slow as 3:37s for the top cars. Chances are the top GTS cars will be faster than the LMP 750 cars next year, and perhaps a couple of the slower LMP 900 cars.

Dont expect miracles for 2004, but 2005...perhaps a overall podium. As for a suprise victory for a works GTS team - yes. Prodrive 550, or factory Maserati could do it.

917Addicted · 9 Oct 2003, 13:23 (Ref:745222)

Eheheh Saleen.

IMHO I think you are dreaming a bit

If the 550 Maranellos (and 575GTC, as they are more or less as fast) can lap 3m48s at LeMans, the privateer Audis (and I even think that Joest may run Le Mans next year

) will be able to lap in 3m30s (or less).

Mind you, these are only qualifying times. Everyone remembers that in 2002 the Joest Audis could run just shy of 3m35s in the race... I wonder, what is the pace that those GTS can run next year????

(I know that the GTS in theory spend less time in the pits (100-Litre fuel tank against LMP 90-Litre). However, this year, the GTS spend more time in the pits because they were less reliable and subject to more problems (like disc brakes) than LMPs. Then again, nobody can see the future, and, if a moviestar can win an election in some state in the largest world-democracy, then who knows if we'll see a GTS in the podium at the next 24H)

Fogelhund · 9 Oct 2003, 13:28 (Ref:745236)

Well, certainly given the existing set of rules, for LM this is just not possible for 04', beyond anything but very weird circumstances. Even though the fields are less then stellar, there are still too many reliable fast cars for this to happen.

Having said this, the apparent push is to have GTS and LMP1 be competitive for overall victories, with a target time of 3:40 for the GTS cars in the very near term, from what I heard 05'. The manufacturers are said to be pushing for this, and it may very well come to fruition. (Certainly explains why there are no new cars for 04', and those that were planned, all suddenly became delayed until 05'.

It is likely that 'Super' GTS may be the way to go.

SALEEN S7R · 9 Oct 2003, 13:35 (Ref:745246)

Quote:

Originally posted by 917Addicted
Eheheh Saleen.

IMHO I think you are dreaming a bit

If the 550 Maranellos (and 575GTC, as they are more or less as fast) can lap 3m48s at LeMans, the privateer Audis (and I even think that Joest may run Le Mans next year ) will be able to lap in 3m30s (or less).

Mind you, these are only qualifying times. Everyone remembers that in 2002 the Joest Audis could run just shy of 3m35s in the race... I wonder, what is the pace that those GTS can run next year????

(I know that the GTS in theory spend less time in the pits (100-Litre fuel tank against LMP 90-Litre). However, this year, the GTS spend more time in the pits because they were less reliable and subject to more problems (like disc brakes) than LMPs. Then again, nobody can see the future, and, if a moviestar can win an election in some state in the largest world-democracy, then who knows if we'll see a GTS in the podium at the next 24H)

Just one small thing. The Audi's have only ever just gone under the 3:30 mark as far as Im aware, and that was only by a few tenths. Now that privateers are running them they arent as fast I dont belive. Also, the tunnels under the LMP cars will slow the cars down, particulary on the straights, correct? Now GTS cars will be running flat bottoms for the moment, so im expecting to see LMP cars become signifcantly slower. Around the 3:37 mark for the best LMP teams if u ask me.

I may have got this completly wrong, I dunno.

917Addicted · 9 Oct 2003, 13:37 (Ref:745249)

Yeah right...

Instead of having pure prototypes we'll have SuperGTs.

(and they'll cost all the same... Instead of a R8 juggernauht we will have an Audi GT (or whatever its name) domination)

Fogelhund · 9 Oct 2003, 13:50 (Ref:745261)

917Addicted - the main reason that we have a R8 juggernaught, is that there is no real effort to compete against them, except, well their in house Bentley.

It would seem as though the LMP platform is one that is not really attracting much interest from the manufacturers. Its either that, or the whole of Sportscar racing is no longer of interest.

Now, if the manufacturers are interested in this, and apparently Corvette, Maserati, Porsche, Audi, Panoz and at least one Japanese manufacturer are, then it is a better situation then just Audi Team A, & Audi Team B. At least one of these cars should give Audi a run for their money.

Certainly the SuperGT's of BPR were of enough interest to fans. The GTS cars of today, are just about as fast as the GT1 'prototypes' of the 98' era, or even the pure prototypes for that matter.

917Addicted · 9 Oct 2003, 14:09 (Ref:745278)

I know what you are saying Fogelhund (Bird-Dog????)

The fact is that I loved BPR!!!! Those GTs were really great. But, why was it so sucessfull??? No real domination by any team/car.(ok, the McLaren beat everyone, then again, not because it was the fastest but more because it was the most reliable).

The fact is, Audi is dominating this sport because at least they race! And they spend huge money in it. I wonder, will the others be willing to spend as much as Audi in a SuperGT

Mal · 9 Oct 2003, 16:18 (Ref:745413)

With the mid engined design and the development work being done I would expect the Maserati to be around 3.40 and the 575 will probably be closer to 3.45 once it has had some more track time. Bear in mind that it is as fast as the 550 straight out of the box, and the 550 has taken a few years to get to where it is.

noise boy 2 · 9 Oct 2003, 17:01 (Ref:745455)

Quote:

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Just one small thing. The Audi's have only ever just gone under the 3:30 mark as far as Im aware, and that was only by a few tenths. Now that privateers are running them they arent as fast I dont belive. Also, the tunnels under the LMP cars will slow the cars down, particulary on the straights, correct? Now GTS cars will be running flat bottoms for the moment, so im expecting to see LMP cars become signifcantly slower. Around the 3:37 mark for the best LMP teams if u ask me.

I may have got this completly wrong, I dunno.

All of the LMP cars in the new spec have a relatively flat bottom, There are no real ground effects tunnels. The new bottoms are shaped more like a flat bottom boat (deeper at the keel than at the edges). Robert

dretceterini · 10 Oct 2003, 04:47 (Ref:745882)

The 935s beat the "true" prototypes years ago, and anything is possible. Personally, I prefer prototypes to GTS and GT cars, but it seems like sportscar racing is moving in the other direction. It takes TONS of money to build a sucessful prototype today (and, no, I don''t consider DSPs as prototypes).

Splatz the Cow · 10 Oct 2003, 07:02 (Ref:745990)

I've just been to the FIAT site and they are talking about the FIAT Enzo, what is this car and is the same as the Ferrari?

PS. What the heck is this new Maserati?

Splatz the Cow · 10 Oct 2003, 07:06 (Ref:745994)

Do you guys think Renault will return with their Skyline or that Isuzu will continue to develop the C5-R?

AllonFS · 10 Oct 2003, 07:52 (Ref:746023)

Regarding some of the suggested lap times for future years. Don't forget that even with restrictions placed on prototypes, they (like GTS) will develop in other areas. A classic example is F1, despite being horrible narrow things on grooved wheels they are faster now than ever before due to ongoing development in other parts of the car. So it is probably not right to assume that GTS will just get faster and prototypes will stay the same or get slower. All cars will improve over time, (even Deboras!) and unless there are MAJOR rule changes the inherent advantages of prototypes are likely to keep them at the top at Le Mans.

Mal · 10 Oct 2003, 10:14 (Ref:746125)

Thats right only if a major manufacturer builds a new prototype. If not they still have some way to go to catch up with Audi. GTS are likely to make significant steps in the next two years

Fogelhund · 10 Oct 2003, 11:03 (Ref:746166)

Your point makes sense Allon, unless the manufacturers convince the ACO that it should change, which they are trying to do apparently.

Smokey 6 litre · 10 Oct 2003, 13:38 (Ref:746315)

Go Prodrive, aim for that podium...yummy

gttouring · 10 Oct 2003, 14:21 (Ref:746351)

why is a GTS overall win so strange? it happened twice already first with the overall for the Oreca Vipers, then the factory Corvettes- and then a GT porsche, so with the abscence of any real challenge from a goof LMP program and only Dp's to fight off another GTS overall victory can happen, granted this was at the daytona 24, but i can see a factory entry beating out any one else, unless their is a factory LMGTP program at lemans, i see the new batch of GTS cars really stealing the show-lamborghini as the new VAG character in the ring is a good one.

GTsports · 10 Oct 2003, 14:35 (Ref:746369)

A friend spoke to the powers that be and he says that LMP will remain the top class in ACO events next year.

If there are a good number of LMPs that show up for the LMES/LM24 AND strong interest from manufacturers in prototypes then there will be no reason to restrict LMPs so as to give the GTS cars an equal shot at an overall victory.

Besides, the GT Supercars already have their own series to race and win overall in.

The ACO's desire to keep LMP cars as the premiere category may have changed Ratels thinking about the FIA GT being for privateers and the LMES/LM 24 for the major manufacturer's GT Supercar teams.

SALEEN S7R · 10 Oct 2003, 15:06 (Ref:746401)

I dont buy the last bit. Lambourgini are joining the FIA GT series lets not forget, as are Maserati, and possibly Prodrive with the Aston Martin. If anything at the moment the LMES is for the privateer GTS runners, not FIA GT.

GTsports · 10 Oct 2003, 16:17 (Ref:746465)

I forgot to add that the four factory team rule may be dropped for FIA GT, but any manufacturer must still sell cars to customers.

This is the sign that suggests that factory teams, like Maserati, will be seen in the FIA GT after all.

If the factory GT-S teams can only win their class at LM or LMES then I would guess that Ratel is having to lower the requirements for manfacturers in the FIA series .

Fogelhund · 10 Oct 2003, 16:24 (Ref:746477)

KM, I am not suggesting that the GTS become equivalent through improved performance, nor rules changes for 04'. Those that expect the changes, are targeting 05'.

SALEEN S7R · 10 Oct 2003, 16:32 (Ref:746483)

Quote:

Originally posted by GTsports
If the factory GT-S teams can only win their class at LM or LMES then I would guess that Ratel is having to lower the requirements for manfacturers in the FIA series .

Any class of car can win LM outright. As well as winning their class. I remember in 2000, the #50 Oreca Viper was classifed 7th overall, and still was classifed with a class win in GTS. So if the win is taken by a GTS class car it will be shown as both the winner of the event overall, and the winner of the class. Just like the Bentley LMP GTP got classifed as the overall winner, and the GTP winner.