Mike Hawthorn Accident Guildford By-pass 1959

[mab01UK]

Interesting bit of history from the Surrey Police archives here:
http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/history-f...3Hawthorn.html

[bauble]

Originally Posted by mab01UK

Interesting bit of history from the Surrey Police archives here:
http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/history-f...3Hawthorn.html

Mike was my hero, and I still see him as such, he is in my thoughts every day as I look at pictures on my office wall.

I lost many of my 'heroes' back in the fifties, but the death of Mike Hawthorn left me physically unwell, and I was off work for three days. I spoke to him only once, after the 1955 Goodwood Nine Hours race, and he was charming.

So sad to read the reports.

RIP Mike.

[Peter Mallett]

I don't have "Mon Ami Mate" with me, but the statement made by Rob Walker, is, I think, different to what is written in the book.

[morninggents]

A sad end to a great driver who survived a top class racing career during a dangerous period for motor racing.

It's all too easy to get blase about driving on roads you know well.

[JimW]

One of my mother's motor racing heroes. I well remember her talking about this and we stopped on the By-pass the next time we went that way.

Jim

[SidewaysFeltham]

Perhaps of interest was information which came from a good friend a co-director in the late 1970s who earlier was an insurance engineer with a practice near by.

He was appointed by Hawthorn's underwriters to survey the wreck and concluded probable causation was the tendency of the early Dunlop RS5 (Road Speed cross-ply developed from Dunlop's R series racing tyres) to aquaplane at speed.

The Jag was a MK I saloon; these suffered narrow rear track, whilst Hawthorne's was modified (A standard saloon racing tweak at the time) to widen the rear track using hub spacers.

Interesting tribute here:

http://www.mike-hawthorn.org.uk/881vdu.php

Webby is an arch-Jag collector and Hawthorne fan.

I used to know him back in the seventies as we lived in the same town. Even sold him my XK150 and he brokered a tired E Type sale for me too.

Wish I still had both!

[Aysedasi]

A very interesting thread. Thank you.

[johngee]

I was always given to understand that there was a suggestion that Mike Hawthorn and Rob Walker were both driving too fast for the conditions and perhaps 'racing with each other'. I don't wish to besmirch the memory of either driver (both of whom, I admired) and it was a different world on the public road in those days, let alone on the track.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by johngee

I was always given to understand that there was a suggestion that Mike Hawthorn and Rob Walker were both driving too fast for the conditions and perhaps 'racing with each other'. I don't wish to besmirch the memory of either driver (both of whom, I admired) and it was a different world on the public road in those days, let alone on the track.

Mike grew up during the Second World War, and like many of us, had a certain antipathy towards the Germans at that time. It was said he disliked being beaten by "the Hun cars", and Rob Walker was driving a Gull Wing Merc..

Mike and Rob were good friends, and it entirely possible that they were driving at some speed, but I do not believe that either of them would have driven in a dangerous fashion, after all Rob was not a racing driver.

Somewhat like the death of Ascari at Monza the true cause will never be known.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bauble

Mike and Rob were good friends, and it entirely possible that they were driving at some speed, but I do not believe that either of them would have driven in a dangerous fashion, after all Rob was not a racing driver.

Not in the same sense, of course, but he had raced.....

[johngee]

Originally Posted by bauble

Mike grew up during the Second World War, and like many of us, had a certain antipathy towards the Germans at that time. It was said he disliked being beaten by "the Hun cars", and Rob Walker was driving a Gull Wing Merc..

Mike and Rob were good friends, and it entirely possible that they were driving at some speed, but I do not believe that either of them would have driven in a dangerous fashion, after all Rob was not a racing driver.

That's pretty much much the story, as I know it, probably remembered from Mark Kahn's book 'Death Race 55' (dreadful title but a good account of the disaster of the 1955 Le Mans race).

[NICK ALLISON]

Is there a memorial plaque or similar at the accident spot.?
I travel to work from London to Farnham and return and have not found anything yet.
If not there should be !

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by bauble

Mike grew up during the Second World War, and like many of us, had a certain antipathy towards the Germans at that time. It was said he disliked being beaten by "the Hun cars", and Rob Walker was driving a Gull Wing Merc..

Mike and Rob were good friends, and it entirely possible that they were driving at some speed, but I do not believe that either of them would have driven in a dangerous fashion, after all Rob was not a racing driver.

Somewhat like the death of Ascari at Monza the true cause will never be known.

As I understand the story, as Hawthorn drove past Walker, he gave him the traditional British greeting: A "V" sign!

Already stated: yes indeed, road conditions were dramatically different in the 1950s!

I am in one sense, fortunate to have experienced driving then as I passed my test in 1959; and in the other sense, unfortunate to be old enough to recall those halcyon days with much pleasure!



That said, like my own hero, Stirling Moss, I can still go rather quickly when needs arise.......

Perhaps what is most important is to remember how different things were then.

Cross-Ply tyres lacked the sheer adhesion and "forgiveness" of radials: and brakes faded with monotonous regularity. Suspension and steering was basically agricultural.

I owned a number of Jag MKIs and IIs and they were great until skill was needed! As many bank robbers and Smash 'N Grab raiders (And, dare I say, police patrol officers!) discovered to their cost.

Steering by throttle, as perfected by one Juan Manuel Fangio was an essential when one went at above average speed.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by NICK ALLISON

Is there a memorial plaque or similar at the accident spot.?
I travel to work from London to Farnham and return and have not found anything yet.
If not there should be !

Someone has told me that there is a 'small stone memorial' of some sort but, like you Nick, I've never found it.
Having said that, the narrow verges of the A3 around that point, don't really invite close inspection if you value your life! Makes 'on post' marshalling seem quite safe

[bauble]

Despite the limitations of tyres, and suspension I cannot believe that Mike Hawthorn would have been caught out by surface conditions on a road he knew well.
We know he suffered from a kidney problem and I wonder if it was not some affect that caused the crash.

We will never have an explanation, but it is enough to remember a man who could bring tears to your eyes simply by his sheer love of racing, and his absolute commitment to any situation. Mike embodied all that was good and great about 1950's motor sport, a true hero and inspiration for many.

Compared with today's F1 drivers .... well don't bother.

I have a video of the 1955 TT and Dundrod, and to see Mike in the D-Type battling with Moss in the Mercedes shows his intention to beat the Hun Car if at all possible. Fabulous to watch, as was his battle with Fangio at Le Mans the same year.

He may not have had the same ability as Stirling or Juan, but more than made up for it with his determination, but after the race loved to relax and enjoy the life of a racing driver. Tales of various escapades he and the like of Duncan Hamilton indulged in show the other side of Mike the racer.*


Bob.

* 'Touch Wood' by Duncan Hamilton

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by johngee

Someone has told me that there is a 'small stone memorial' of some sort but, like you Nick, I've never found it.
Having said that, the narrow verges of the A3 around that point, don't really invite close inspection if you value your life! Makes 'on post' marshalling seem quite safe

I believe the monument or plaque is not visible from the road but is in the small copse of trees alongside the road. Assuming of course that it was replaced after being vandalised.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by D-Type

I believe the monument or plaque is not visible from the road but is in the small copse of trees alongside the road. Assuming of course that it was replaced after being vandalised.

Thank you. I'll have a look round, next time that I'm passing. It seems a tragedy if, indeed, it has been vandalised - I thought Guildford was a nice area!

[davyboy]

The coroner seemed to put it down to excessive speed for the conditions. Here's another slant on the story that was published a few years ago.

[SidewaysFeltham]

If one examines the original pictures of the crashed Jag, then quite clearly, it had to be travelling at high speed.

The MKI was the first new wave Jaguar as it was monocoque (Unitary) construction.

I owned a number of MKI s and II s and ran many through my accident and panel-paint shop and believe me, they were very strong and heavy cars. The deformation of the monocoque, no seatbelts, basic seats and the very design, predicated serious injuries indeed.

Being impaled on the steering column, before these were designed to collapse in on themselves was a serious cause of fatality: as were leg and lower body injuries sustained as the engine-transmission broke away from its mountings and accelerated into the driver; thanks to de-acceleration of the host structure and kinetic energy.

http://www.mike-hawthorn.org.uk/finality2.php

Earlier posts seem to dispute the large potential for Hawthorne to have made a serious driver error.

Now, I am not denigrating a great man, a personal hero and a fantastic driver of this time.

Mike epitomised all we wanted to be when we grew up!

However, ALL racing drivers make mistakes! As did Moss in the Mila Miglia with Jenks when Moss hit straw bales. As did Clark (IMHO the man most unlikely to make a mistake) when he totalled a new Lotus Monocoque (Type 25) at Monaco (???).

And as did Fangio...

quote: "Juan Manuel Fangio seldom had accidents but when he did fatigue was usually a factor. His worst accident, the one that nearly killed him, came after a six-hour solo drive through the Alps in a road car. He kept himself awake by slapping his face and arrived, utterly exhausted, just a few minutes before the start of the 1952 Grand Prix of Monza…"

http://www.f1speedwriter.com/2013/09...-at-monza.html

As I earlier suggested, cars of that era, were hugely unforgiving. One had to experience such as brake fade and true cross-ply aquaplaning to really understand.

Plus, additionally, suspension and steering were archaic, when compared to even, saloons of the 1980s: the work of such as Chapman, Eric Broadley and John Cooper, fed into mainstream vehicle design as had few others excepting such as Fred Lanchester in the early days of automobiles.

[mountainstar]

Cars and tires back then were ox cart technology compared to what we have now.

I think his death just came down to exceeding the grip limit of the tires and not having the room or time to catch it and recover from the skid. I don't think there were any exceptional or out of sort circumstances involved.

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The coroner seemed to put it down to excessive speed for the conditions. Here's another slant on the story that was published a few years ago.

I've always thought it a strange coincidence that 2 of the foremost racing people of the era were on the same stretch of road at exactly the same time. I'm sure this fact must have been commente on before

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

If one examines the original pictures of the crashed Jag, then quite clearly, it had to be travelling at high speed.

The MKI was the first new wave Jaguar as it was monocoque (Unitary) construction.

I owned a number of MKI s and II s and ran many through my accident and panel-paint shop and believe me, they were very strong and heavy cars. The deformation of the monocoque, no seatbelts, basic seats and the very design, predicated serious injuries indeed.

Being impaled on the steering column, before these were designed to collapse in on themselves was a serious cause of fatality: as were leg and lower body injuries sustained as the engine-transmission broke away from its mountings and accelerated into the driver; thanks to de-acceleration of the host structure and kinetic energy.

http://www.mike-hawthorn.org.uk/finality2.php

Earlier posts seem to dispute the large potential for Hawthorne to have made a serious driver error.

Now, I am not denigrating a great man, a personal hero and a fantastic driver of this time.

Mike epitomised all we wanted to be when we grew up!

However, ALL racing drivers make mistakes! As did Moss in the Mila Miglia with Jenks when Moss hit straw bales. As did Clark (IMHO the man most unlikely to make a mistake) when he totalled a new Lotus Monocoque (Type 25) at Monaco (???).

And as did Fangio...

quote: "Juan Manuel Fangio seldom had accidents but when he did fatigue was usually a factor. His worst accident, the one that nearly killed him, came after a six-hour solo drive through the Alps in a road car. He kept himself awake by slapping his face and arrived, utterly exhausted, just a few minutes before the start of the 1952 Grand Prix of Monza…"

http://www.f1speedwriter.com/2013/09...-at-monza.html

As I earlier suggested, cars of that era, were hugely unforgiving. One had to experience such as brake fade and true cross-ply aquaplaning to really understand.

Plus, additionally, suspension and steering were archaic, when compared to even, saloons of the 1980s: the work of such as Chapman, Eric Broadley and John Cooper, fed into mainstream vehicle design as had few others excepting such as Fred Lanchester in the early days of automobiles.

A very good post this.

In 1960 there were around 3M vehicles on Britain's roads yet there were 6,970 fatalities as a result of road accidents. In 2012 there were 35M vehicles on the roads and 1,754 fatalities. To put that into context, you were 47 times more likely to be killed as a result of a RTA then than now. The cars and the roads back then were death traps in comparison to today.

[John Fielden]

Whilst I agree with Sideways comments for the most part perhaps he might spell JMH's name correctly
One of my abiding memories is from December 1958 when, as a student I learned that Mike Hawthorn was to visit a craft fair at he Free trade hall in Manchester. I duly turned up and trailed round the hall in the wake of the attendant crowd. On one stand was an early edition of Scalextric and I was lucky enough to be first in line when Mike's attention was attracted to it. He grabbed the controls thrust one into my hand and said "Race you I'm having the Ferrari"
So I raced against Mike Hawthorn whilst driving a 250F Maserati!
Sadly he was gone the next month/

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by davyboy

A very good post this.

In 1960 there were around 3M vehicles on Britain's roads yet there were 6,970 fatalities as a result of road accidents. In 2012 there were 35M vehicles on the roads and 1,754 fatalities. To put that into context, you were 47 times more likely to be killed as a result of a RTA then than now. The cars and the roads back then were death traps in comparison to today.

Well said.

Cars of that age, were indeed deathtraps.

A number of disparate reasons:

Kinetic Energy, for one. Crumple Zones did not appear until Merc saloons of the early 70s, from memory.

These held the engine-transmission on a sub-structure, designed to not ingress the passenger compartment under sudden deceleration. And generally, the whole unitary frame was designed to crumple, progressively, dissipating kinetic energy, rather than subject the occupant/s to sudden extreme acceleration.

Additionally, dashboards in those days were a mass of knobbly objects, just waiting to impact the driver and passenger.

Thanks to Chapman (mainly) et al, science and geometry was applied to suspension and steering design.

The wondrous Four Wheel Drift became a thing of the past. As we now see by the simply reality of the G force F1 drivers can be subjected to in cornering: unheard of in those days.

Perhaps best illustrated by the F1 driver who commented in the late 80s (Sorry; I forget who) that in a then modern hot hatch, he could have put up credible times around brands GP Circuit!

Living and driving in those far gone days, one experienced the utterly appalling damage to humans caused in RTAs: not nice, as any emergency services personnel from then would assure you.

My own conclusion was simply Mike was going too fast, for that car, those tyres, on that surface and because of his innate skill.

Reading any decent account, for example, of the outstanding Algerian driver, Guy Moll's horrendous accident on the Pescara Circuit for the Coppa Acerbo, gives an idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Moll

My own invaluable reference source on this dreadful accident is the epic book by Barré Lyndon, Grand Prix, written in 1935, inherited from my late father.

Moll's tragic accident happened as he made a - rare - misjudgement when travelling at 160 MPH; and his car travelled a long way: the old enemy, kinetic energy once again..

Remembering, the technology of cars had not advanced much between 1934 and 1959: accelerating design (and safety) improvements only began to happen in the late 1960s......

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by John Fielden

Whilst I agree with Sideways comments for the most part perhaps he might spell JMH's name correctly
One of my abiding memories is from December 1958 when, as a student I learned that Mike Hawthorn was to visit a craft fair at he Free trade hall in Manchester. I duly turned up and trailed round the hall in the wake of the attendant crowd. On one stand was an early edition of Scalextric and I was lucky enough to be first in line when Mike's attention was attracted to it. He grabbed the controls thrust one into my hand and said "Race you I'm having the Ferrari"
So I raced against Mike Hawthorn whilst driving a 250F Maserati!
Sadly he was gone the next month/

Profuse apologies, John: and to the memory of the late, great Mike Hawthorn.

In humble explanation, I make these posts very much "on the fly", between working and I am frenetically busy right now. And typing loads of financial guff and wordy analyses, which tends to make one word blind and complacent, probably.

No guilt about sneaking time away: as I'm self-employed.



Perhaps a Mod might kindly correct my typo: the "edit" facility evaporates fairly quickly, on these boards..........