Flagging Question

[Burnsie]

Having watched the F1 Grand Prix and GP2 Sprint Race from Monaco, I just want to clarify the procedure for resuming a race following a Safety Car period.

I had thought that once the Safety Car returns to the pitlane, the starter will display the green flag and each subsequent flag-post will do the same. In other words, the green flag will go in one direction around the circuit, and the drivers will not see a one until they have reached the start/finish line. However, in Monaco I noticed that the drivers passed at least three green flags before they crossed the start/finish line.

[Mark Mitchell]

This is normal........don't ask me why but it is!

[Bodysnatcher]

That seems to be this year's FIA way - again simplifying things for those that have no tradition of F1 (Singapore, I'm looking at you) - one radio call - "green flag all points"

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

That seems to be this year's FIA way - again simplifying things for those that have no tradition of F1 (Singapore, I'm looking at you) - one radio call - "green flag all points"

O'k, just the FIA way; but it does seem more logical, providing the Safety Car IS clear of the Circuit. However, we are back to communications! It will only work if ALL Flag Marshals (sorry; Experienced Marshal employed on Flag duties!!!), are on Radio! If not, the normal UK system must prevail where Post follows Post.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

That seems to be this year's FIA way

Nah! I did it this way in Canada in 2002!

[Clive]

If yellows were held out prior to the start line until the last car passes, the front runners would have almost caught up the tail enders before they passed the start line, so all cars should receive the green at the same time to resume racing speed, but they are not allowed to overtake until they have passed the start line. Post chiefs are to be observant!

[MPA]

Yup, green flag at all points once the starter has gone green. No passing until you have passed the control line.

Green to stay out for one complete lap....in fact, keep waving it until you see the leader coming around a second time. Just in case a back marker has not seen it yet.

We've been doing it like this for a few years now.

However, I seem to remember being told to bring the flag in after half a lap after a restart at the AGP......The comment was passed down the line.... "We think the drivers know what's going on now."

[blueflagger]

AG, that is correct you need to be on a radio or, preferably, a party hardline for "Green flag all points" to work properly. And that is way the FIA want the flags.

We (North American tracks) did muck around with posts removing the SC yellow as soon as the safety car got to Pit In but the distance from PI to Start varies from track to track and some drivers saw that as an opportunity to pass before the green was actually given at start.

[Shelagh]

I remember having a problem at Oulton Park a few years back whilst flagging at Deer Leap (last point before the startline). There was a huge debate as to whether or not we should still be showing yellow/SC board when the green was out on the startline. I believe instructions have since been issued!

Also, at Donington, we had a problem where single seaters coming through the chicane to be confronted by the yellow/SC on the startline had a huge accident because of suddenly slowing down. I think that was rectified by posts 38 and 39 showing the yellow/SC as advance warning.

To my mind, the biggest problem is that each organiser seems to want to do things "their own way". I do think things have got better over the years but it isn't that long ago that we had 3 or 4 different safety car instructions at a single meeting!!!! And this included what to do with the green.

I reckon it can be SO simple: waved yellow when the train is in your sector; stationary yellow if a car is "catching up" the train (the fact it ain't waving is his indicator that he has a ways to go); green once the safety car has gone in. And to prevent possible startline incidents, at least the first post (or maybe two) prior to the startline shows yellow/SC or green before the cars actually get to the startline, thus giving them advance warning (but not allowing them to pass in the case of the green).

But then again, I consider myself a sensible sort of soul who doesn't work for the FIA............................

[Andy Johns]

Spot on Shelagh!
At Thruxton BTCC, last two posts were warned that they might be asked to put yellow and SC board out (via radio to Observer) if the incident was close to the start line.
When we did the Qatar GP Masters, we were told that the green goes out on all posts at the same time, and one of the drivers was later quoted as saying he was confused by seeing greens before the start line.
Thing is, I don't see the point in putting green out on all posts. If a driver doesn't realise that it's gone green and the car in front is now 100 yards away travelling at racing speed, he shouldn't be racing! Also, I thought the greens being waved in Monaco were likely to distract the drivers as the flaggies were holding them well over the barrier, in their faces.

[275 GTB-4]

Certainly looked like someone called "Full Course Green" to me...

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

That seems to be this year's FIA way - again simplifying things for those that have no tradition of F1 (Singapore, I'm looking at you) - one radio call - "green flag all points"

Not just this year but for many years, probably ever since the flaggies were put onto their own radio net.

For Safety Car we get a call for "all points SC" and display our yellows and SC boards. Once incident is cleared we get a call for "all points green" just as the SC enters the pit entrance. Seems to work OK.

The drivers should know what's going on anyway from their pit-to-car radios

[danccooke]

Not to criticise but sod it I will. I noticed a random yellow waved at the leaders and a green and a yellow waved on the same post (very small sector for no overtaking I guess). but most impressively a brave marshal who had an F1 car come in to his point backwards into the tyres where he was stood and camly picked up the yellow and waved it. big balls or mad, not sure (also theoretically he was passed the incident so should have been a green but I would probably without thinking waved a yellow too)

back to the question though. IMHO I think the full course green if you have the comms is the way to go. For the same reasons as above. The main one being the leaders catching the back markers before they cross the line.

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by Andy Johns

Spot on Shelagh!

So - how do I get a highly paid job with the FIA then??????

[danccooke]

become a hooker witha penchant for Nazi's...............

[MPA]

Originally Posted by danccooke

become a hooker with a penchant for Nazi's...............

And the wife of an M15 spy to boot....

Gosh, you English do good stuff apart from waving flags.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by danccooke

Not to criticise but sod it I will. I noticed a random yellow waved at the leaders and a green and a yellow waved on the same post (very small sector for no overtaking I guess).

Twas a good race but ended too early in our morning!!! I once again saw my favourite Marshal....he was regularly on Teev, poking his head out and looking back at the camera, then he invariable waved his flag flat-as-tack, backwards and forwards, horizontally (well done that man )

[EvilPumpkin]

Paul, F1 works on FIA rules while we work on either MSA or MI standard at Kirky and Mondello. Since we don't have an SC at Kirky it's never come up there.

At Mondello, we have always put out the green around the circuit from start/finish onward so that posts prior to the start/finish will put the green out only after they see it on their preceding post.

I went to have a look at the 2008 rules just to check - and got a bit of a shock! For a while, it looked like there weren't any at all!!!! But Grant managed to rummage around and they turned up in Appendix 40!

Ok MI rules

16.13.2. All flag posts will withdraw their yellow flag and SC board, in race direction rotation and replace them with a stationary green flag for one lap.

[Alan Green]

From the FIA F1 Sporting Regulations;

40.8 All competing cars must then form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart and
overtaking...is forbidden until the cars reach the {Start/Finish} Line after the safety car has returned to the pits.

40.13 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags, with green lights at the {Start/Finish} Line. These {lights} will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

So yes there may be a green flag waving, but no overtaking until you cross the line.
Al.

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by danccooke

become a hooker witha penchant for Nazi's...............

I think not! Mind you, if anyone has a fixation with carrots, I might be in with a chance

[gachjoel]

Another Question on Flagging......
International Flagging is always a waved flag.
When it comes to the yellow in your sector,does the preceding post show a flag or is it purely 1 flag for that sector only ?

Thanks

Gary

[roys1]

Originally Posted by gachjoel

Another Question on Flagging......
International Flagging is always a waved flag.
When it comes to the yellow in your sector,does the preceding post show a flag or is it purely 1 flag for that sector only ?

Hmmm.
Can of worms time again..
It is only the one post.. HOWEVER there are some posts that would/should show a flag before.. I.E. Bridge and bridge link at Silverstone..
there are also occasions when race control will ask you to upgrade to a double yellow or the previous post to show a yellow..

Hope that helps.
Roy

[gachjoel]

Cheers Roys.
waved flags unless requested
That was the other thing,
Radio`s for flaggies.
i take it race control will tell you when they want a flag out ?
not been out on silverstone circuit,so just getting prepared

[TFHarv]

Do the FIA guidelines of showing a waved yellow at the sector of the incident and a waved green to give the all clear not make it more dangerous for all involved? with a stationary yellow in the sector before the incident does this not give drivers more warning of impending danger and allow for them to have that little bit longer to think about avoiding action?

It seems odd that at the moment with club flag rules you show a stationary yellow on the entrance to a blind corner to then see a waved yellow over the brow and be aware that something is wrong. With the FIA setup they come over the blind corner to see a waved yellow and have no time to judge the safest course of action before being in amongst an incident and possibly bodies?

Am I getting it wrong or does that not seem somewhat more dangerous for the sake of flaggies needing to look both ways ( or not if 2 flaggies on a post ? )

[EvilPumpkin]

IIRC, it's single waved yellow precedes double waved yellow? I know it used to be anyway, but it's a few years since I looked at the regs?