FOTA, a force for good?

[Tehillim]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71079

What a bold idea in these straitened times, and perhaps a chance for Williams to rebuild itself into a front-runner. And one of the side-effects is that Ferrari will no longer get its special bonus payment which so upsets its rivals.

I've really high hopes for FOTA actually changing F1 for the better. This would be a great start.

[duke_toaster]

Scrapping prize money and replacing it with revenue sharing (or at least this aspect) is a sensible idea - take the NFL for example. It's comparing strawberries with bananas but no NFL team has gone bust for - er - ages.

[JohnSSC]

Funny how Socialism is BAD unless it is to help our sports and the et voila! It is a wonderful thing!

Or in this country it is BAD unless you are propping up a banking system or two...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Or in this country it is BAD unless you are propping up a banking system or two...

The rich taking from the poor yet again.But if you want money from them,expect to pay a price for it.

As for equally distributing the money between the teams.I expect Ferrari will be doing a seperate deal with BE.

All will be equal,it's just that some will be more equal than others.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Funny how Socialism is BAD unless it is to help our sports and the et voila! It is a wonderful thing!

Mate, this is not called Socialism but Shared Capitalism in the higher levels and self-sustainable economy in small business... anything to avoid that name...

[Dutton]

Taking vast sums from the general population in order to stock up the pockets of a stuttering part of the capitalist elite is hardly what you could call socialism. It is non-free-market state-supported capitalism, certainly, but it ain't socialism. (Before anyone points out how in self-proclaimed socialist places like the USSR the political elite supported their own lavish lifestyles by taking vast sums that either came from the general population, or was denied them, I would like to say I totally agree with you. That wasn't socialism either: that was simply another example of corrupt tyranny).

Anyway, as for the proposed equal sharing, well it should certainly help the backmarkers survive a bit more in their eternal struggle. An overall good, I'd say.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Mate, this is not called Socialism but Shared Capitalism in the higher levels and self-sustainable economy in small business... anything to avoid that name...

Thank you very much (and Dutton as well) for explaining to me the nuances of state-supported capitalism! As we all know, in a market economy, there is no need for government intervention as indeed the markets are self-regulating. This is all perfectly fine and dandy when the market has self regulated folks like me out of a job, but we sure can't leave the poor bugger running WaMu at risk of missing out on his $12 million termination clause after a grand total of 3 weeks on the job...

Anyway, lest this get too far off topic, I give my whole-hearted support to taking this concept to F1. Every team should open it's books right down to the petty cash accounts and share, share, share. Right from jump I believe that Flav should buy them blue-tinted glasses he wears for everyone. I think it would be great to see RD and particularly Mario Thiessen wearing them.

[Yannick]

These days, it's motorsports series that compete with each other on the TV rights market, not independent drivers or independent teams anymore, so the idea kind of makes sense: F1's troubles are not competition from other series like NASCAR or A1GP, but the ongoing decrease in the number of cars on the grid.
If I recall correctly, the basketball association NBA has some means for teams not to have to quit that go along those lines.

[Sev]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Or in this country it is BAD unless you are propping up a banking system or two...

Except of course, that the reason behind that is that you would be the loser if the banking system collapsed. The money given to banks isn't to pay themselves, its so they can continue providing corporate loans, which keep every other company in the country afloat; and hence you in a job.

Sorry, I know this is off-topic.

On topic:

I think more even revenue sharing is a good thing. There is one problem with straight splitting though; which is that revenues are so large, there might be a team which is tempted to run a crappy car, spending no money, and just rake in the revenue. You'd need a 107% rule with a no customer car stipulation and split the revenue by races started or something.

[Marbot]

Watch out FOTA here comes Max!

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20844.html

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Watch out FOTA here comes Max!

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20844.html

No ! He won't be favouring Ferrari !

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

No ! He won't be favouring Ferrari !

I'm picking up on your sarcasm there.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by Sev

Except of course, that the reason behind that is that you would be the loser if the banking system collapsed. The money given to banks isn't to pay themselves, its so they can continue providing corporate loans, which keep every other company in the country afloat; and hence you in a job.

Sorry, I know this is off-topic.

On topic:

I think more even revenue sharing is a good thing. There is one problem with straight splitting though; which is that revenues are so large, there might be a team which is tempted to run a crappy car, spending no money, and just rake in the revenue. You'd need a 107% rule with a no customer car stipulation and split the revenue by races started or something.

Off-topic, my tongue was firmly in cheek and I do understand the consequences. I actually heard an economist suggest today that the entire American financial services industry be nationalized. I almost fell out of my car when I heard that! That rumbling sound you hear is Milton Friedman spinning in his grave!

On topic, it amazes me that despite the evidence that the racing has gotten too expensive for all but a very few teams, no one seems to see the proverbial forest for all the trees. Even with revenue sharing the wealthiest teams will still be the wealthiest teams...

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Sev

Except of course, that the reason behind that is that you would be the loser if the banking system collapsed. The money given to banks isn't to pay themselves, its so they can continue providing corporate loans, which keep every other company in the country afloat; and hence you in a job.

Sorry, I know this is off-topic.

Sorry to be off-topic again, but that's the very foundation of capitalism, so what's the principle of a "bank" again ?

Originally Posted by Sev

On topic:
I think more even revenue sharing is a good thing. There is one problem with straight splitting though; which is that revenues are so large, there might be a team which is tempted to run a crappy car, spending no money, and just rake in the revenue. You'd need a 107% rule with a no customer car stipulation and split the revenue by races started or something.

Not a bad idea, but still a 106,99 % within the rules would do the trick, so a supervising system or a split by development phasis (?!) would be better yet.

[Tehillim]

Originally Posted by Sev

I think more even revenue sharing is a good thing. There is one problem with straight splitting though; which is that revenues are so large, there might be a team which is tempted to run a crappy car, spending no money, and just rake in the revenue. You'd need a 107% rule with a no customer car stipulation and split the revenue by races started or something.

Yes, good point about the 107% rule, otherwise it could be a bit of a farce. And with the 107% rule there would be no need to restrict F1 to 12 teams, additional competition at the back of the grid might be a good thing.

I see what you're saying about banning customer cars but I think F1 would have to make huge cost savings to make this realistic, especially in the current climate. I don't think Williams and Force India will accept customer cars getting equal shares to their own (and they've got a point), so I guess there may be some compromises made on that score.

[bjohnsonsmith]

And if FOTA proves to be toothless, which I hope it doesn't, It'll be more of the same and F1 will get gradually worse.

[Marbot]

Mosley's five year plan.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=36288

[bjohnsonsmith]

The five year plan makes interesting reading. If Mosley is that concerned about finances why not cut back on the number of GPs that require teams to take long haul flights to and from venues. Just look at the first and last 3 races for next season; all that flying must cost a small fortune especially now.

[Born Racer]

A terrible plan. F1 as a spec series makes me shudder.

[Teretonga]

From what I have seen FOTAwill be as effective in saving the ship as the band would be in debating what music to play in the last hours of the Titanic...

I haven't seen anything that will really rescue the sport.
They're too close to teh main game to be really objective about it and are simply trying to put off the inevitable, just like the owners in the last days of CART before they jumped ship and went the the IRL.

I wouldn't be surpised to see the manufacturers actually strike out on their own again if the FIA gets too manipulative in all of this and after the recent stewards decisions it might be the best thing for the sport.....

[duke_toaster]

Right, here's my alternative five year plan (OK, it's a three year one) :P

2009 : Current engines rev limited further (17,500 or so) to increase engine life to four races/tests.
2009 : Drastic testing cuts. No team will be issued with F1 tyres outside of an official F1 test and the FIA should remove the spec ECU chips. Only three official tests during the season and none when the circus is outside Europe.
2009 : Rejigging of Concorde money so that all teams get an equal share.
2010 : Like Max, Introduction of standard parts where there is little room for road relevant development and the public don't care about the development. These would be wheels, brakes, all aero parts.
2010 : Limits on how many staff can be taken per race to 50 (Europe) and 30 (Outside Europe). All hospitality to be run by FOM.
2011 : Survival cell added to 2010 list to reduce costs due to crash testing.
When we are out of the economic downturn : New engine rules to increase road relevancy.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I wouldn't be surpised to see the manufacturers actually strike out on their own again if the FIA gets too manipulative in all of this and after the recent stewards decisions it might be the best thing for the sport.....

I really hope you're right.

[Tehillim]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

From what I have seen FOTAwill be as effective in saving the ship as the band would be in debating what music to play in the last hours of the Titanic...

I haven't seen anything that will really rescue the sport.
They're too close to teh main game to be really objective about it and are simply trying to put off the inevitable, just like the owners in the last days of CART before they jumped ship and went the the IRL.

I wouldn't be surpised to see the manufacturers actually strike out on their own again if the FIA gets too manipulative in all of this and after the recent stewards decisions it might be the best thing for the sport.....

I can't see the teams breaking away, though it might be better if they did, too many commercial contracts are held by FOM which is tied to promote the F1 championship. I think FOTA is as strong and unified a position as the teams have ever taken against the FIA, it's the best chance there is of coming out with some decent rule-changes, without FOTA it's left to Mosley to impose a single standard engine or whatever hare-brained idea gets into his head. Mosley's record of rule changes has been a disaster.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Maybe the one voice that needs to be heard is that of the drivers. It was pressure brought to bear by the drivers in the FISA-FOCA war 1980-82, that finally resolved matters.